First of all: for those of you curious of my state of things - I'm doing fine. I've learned how to battle my constant inner chatter and my inner critic to the point where I can remain fairly clear-minded about things even when tired and under pressure of deadlines. Good stuff! I'm being more honest with myself than I ever was, which often leads to realizations of things that I'd rather ignore because they're "ugly" (like that I'd rather shy away from something than commit to it, even if it means leaving dreams unaccomplished). I'm making progress, and it's great.
Sometimes, though, I'm hitting a wall that I can't seem to be able to climb alone, and while I'm still looking for a therapist (I must admit: I'm still reluctant to do it due to the inner critic wordlessly telling me that I don't deserve it, and the wordless beliefs are the hardest to counter), I could use your support and outside perspective on things.
Essentially, I'm friendless, and I don't know how to make them (at least in my general social group at the moment, which is first-year students). I have trust issues and a bad history of trusting and submitting to people that hurt me, which definitely plays into my social anxiety. I'm reluctant to go out and seek relationships for... a reason I can't quite put my finger on yet (introversion? shyness? "undeservedness"? lack of energy?). Those, though, I feel like I can work on within a relationship, given that I have a strong wish against putting anyone dear to me through the emotional neglect my parents left me; I'm willing to talk things through with my friends and romantic partners because I find it an extremely effective way of solving interpersonal problems. The problem is that people don't seem to be attracted to me in any way that means "spending time with" or "replying to the interest with the same", and I think I know why it happens.
I've been looking for a connection for so long - and had a series of so many bad ones so far - that I'm putting extra effort into appearing a nice guy, with a constant smile to indicate that I'm not a threat, that I'm looking to be appreciated and so on. The way I see it, this extra effort repels people silently: they tolerate my presence and even uphold a chat every once in a while but when it comes to "Hey, how about we walk around together?" (this is how I always ask girls out - not sure if I translate the request properly, though), they bail out, in one way or another. "Sorry, I have so much stuff to do" and so on, you know the drill. It repels them because it looks needy - and it looks needy because it is.
And it's irritating. I'm a natural helper, head over heels when someone's playing a victim, so I'm attracted to such people. I have no idea how to spend time with people who aren't playing victims because I'm afraid to connect in a meaningful way. I don't know what's it like to have good friends, what to do and not to do for and in such a relationship, and there's no manual - I haven't encountered any readily available, anyway. I'm sure there are plenty of books written for people like myself on Amazon or somewhere similarly high-profile on the Internet, but please don't point me to any: even if I have the money to pay them at the moment, there's no freaking way I can order them because there's no way I can pay for the books in USD because Amazon doesn't take WebMoney (a prominent Russian e-money bank), and transferring from WebMoney to PayPal, while possible, is such a damn mess of actions and confirmations and fees (how about a flat $5 fee for a start?) and... best leave it at that: I'm not ordering books from Amazon any time soon, and I'm not reading translations.
Anyway. From what I'm reading, it's not about making people like me to be friends with them, it's about finding people I'm comfortable enough with to be myself. It's most reasonable, but I haven't found such people nor see the prospect of finding them any time soon. While I won't admit it often (because stoicism in this regard is what keeps me sane and not lusting for any connection I can find), being alone is terrible, and I'd like to have friends. Is it possible that I've already found people that could be my true friends and am just reluctant to admit it because it would mean I'd have to trust them? I have no idea, which is why I'm writing all of this in the first place. How much do I tolerate from people, especially when they're being self-centered assholes? Is it normal to be a self-centered asshole around one's 20th birthday and am I just to roll with it? I have no god damn idea.
From what I've heard others say in a quiet voice, people are scared of me - of talking to me, specifically. A friend of mine once said: "People just don't know how to come to you, what to tell you, what to talk about". And, well, I grant you: I don't realize it very often, but I might be imposing physically, at 1.88 m of height and a few weeks worth of beard or a neat mustache plus chinbeard combo. I'm also often quiet, preferring only to say things that matter (and a whole lot of what people say doesn't seem anywhere near worthy enough to me). Maybe it's those two factors. Maybe it's because I prefer to be alone to staying in a company talking about stuff that doesn't begin to matter ("Hey, wow! Our teacher looks so different without a beard!", while maintaining no serious interest in the young man, academical or otherwise - oh fuck off). Maybe it's because I've alienated a whole portion of my group be stating views opposite of what's expected of me (I once told off a teacher for being a nasty hag of a woman in front of the whole group; no regrets - I spoke the truth and got away with it, academically - but they stood with the abuser later in our in-group conversations, one of my groupmates even stating "You have too ideal ideals").
I didn't mean to turn it into a rant that it is, but it expresses my feelings regarding the issue well. It's frustrating to remain in such a position with seemingly no way to go and no energy to move if there is a way. This whole thing is like cooking for me: I'm as bad but also as sufficiently motivated to get better at it. What do I do? How do I lose the neediness? How do I make friends?
Good luck!I must admit: I'm still reluctant to do it due to the inner critic wordlessly telling me that I don't deserve it, and the wordless beliefs are the hardest to counter), I could use your support and outside perspective on things.
We are just people on the Internet. -granted, some of them are pretty awesome people, but still we are largely unable to help you. You need to go see someone. I think the will help greatly. You can do it!!! Take steps towards it today. I have always found that female therapists have been much better, for me. Also, I have liked therapists that take a more mindful approach. -sounds like you are working on silencing your "inner critic" -fins someone that has experience towards that end.
Thanks, Steve; I appreaciate your support, but... ...you're wrong. People of Hubski, including you, have been of tremendous help to me so far, making me think about what's going on from other vantage points - which is exactly what I need. I have the resources to overcome many obstacles I face (if not all) - all I need is to understand it and to see the way to do it, and people here have been kind enough and insightful enough to provide me with as much data as I could never hope to acquire on my own. A lot of my personal problems are gone or dimished thanks to what the Hubskifolk told me through the time I've spent here. If that's not help, I don't know what is. I checked out the uni physchological service today. The cost is quite expensive for my finances - 500 RUB per hour - but... I guess it's worth it. I'll need some time to gather up with going there, but I've saved all the important info. I'll take care of moving to a better apartment first, as it ought to improve my mental state overall.still we are largely unable to help you
Hi! I want to ask you if there are any Meetup.com groups in your area. They seem to be a good way to meet new people. Too bad there's only 4 in my city (3 of them dead) and the nearest "hub" of people is 200 km from here. Ok, on to your post. This is pretty much the gist of it. The problem is: Hence the question about the groups. Volunteering has been suggested here by goobster, which works. I see it as a big group of people whose objective is helping others. :) As I've written before, my problem is a lack of public meetup groups in my area which cater to my interests. I volunteered before, didn't really work for me. Tried connecting to the groups in the other city, turned out to be too expensive for me financially (travel costs). Some more points: When people like that show up, they make the effort to earn your trust. They go the extra mile. They reach out for you. Find those who do it and there's your answer. This falls into the "up to you" area. Tolerate as much as you think you should. For me, the tolerance level is VERY low. I've dealt with self-centered assholes before (one was a close friend). In the end we just drifted away from each other because it was always about him and never about me. What HE wanted to do. What HE wanted to talk about. My suggestions were always disregarded. Also, emotional abuse from his part. To end this in a better mood: Be comfortable with being by yourself. You are your best company. When people who add value to your life show up, it's going to be a bonus. We have a saying in my country: "It's better to be alone than in bad company". Also, seek the others. And hey, there's Hubski! :DFrom what I'm reading, it's not about making people like me to be friends with them, it's about finding people I'm comfortable enough with to be myself.
It's most reasonable, but I haven't found such people nor see the prospect of finding them any time soon.
Is it possible that I've already found people that could be my true friends and am just reluctant to admit it because it would mean I'd have to trust them?
How much do I tolerate from people, especially when they're being self-centered assholes?
What do I do? How do I lose the neediness? How do I make friends?
I've initially wrote a very long and emotional reply to you when I saw your post, partly because I was still distraught over a dream I had that day and partly because you made me think of things that are important to me. Here's another take. I didn't know of this website's existence before, so I checked to see whether, indeed, we have meetups here. There's only one meetup in Tomsk, and it's about front-end software development - far from my field. However, I'm certain that there are other meetups even in my uni - it's just that it might be hard for me to take part in them because I'm quite socially-anxious. I tried it, though: this New Year I've met in an unfamiliar company of people in a private library. It was a bit stressful until we got warmer to each other, soon after the clock rang twelve times. I presume that, had I a familiar person beside me and were I more energetic, the warming-up would have been much sooner: this is how I operate. This is reassuring. I've never met such people in Russia, which is among the reasons I'd like to live in Europe or the US, which is closer to my natural affinity and values. Hopefully, I'll meet some in my life and it physical space; it would be amazing. Thank you for your reply, and particularly for reminding me of meetups. I'll make sure to take part in some.I want to ask you if there are any Meetup.com groups in your area.
When people like that show up, they make the effort to earn your trust. They go the extra mile. They reach out for you. Find those who do it and there's your answer.
Wow. I guess you're in the same situation as me then. Welcome to the club. After reading a bit about Tomsk, well, yeah, we are on the very same boat. Yeah, Meetup.com has a big portion of programming meetups. I haven't looked much into why that happens. But there's hope, you're still in uni! You can find people close too your age there and it's easy to find them. When you graduate, it becomes harder. Me? Well, I hang out there too, but I finished my course. I go there once a week to check up on the current magazines and newspapers. Another thing I end up doing is chit-chatting with the library assitant. Cool! I struck up a conversation with a Danish couple in Buenos Aires a couple years ago. Thought they were Dutch and started talking in English. It turned out that they were staying in the room beside mine. I could see that they enjoyed the surprise. If the person was familiar to you, it could have given you more comfort to talk to them. If the person was familiar to them, I agree, things could have gone a bit faster. But. It's never easy to talk to strangers. Even after doing it for years, I still get butterflies in my stomach. You end up learning how to deal with it. At best, it becomes a warm thrill. At worst, it freezes you. It also turns out that it's not easy for them either. Trying to intersect different worlds is no easy task. It takes time to warm-up. No way around it. Take your time. It feels very creepy when people force connections. this New Year I've met in an unfamiliar company of people in a private library. It was a bit stressful until we got warmer to each other, soon after the clock rang twelve times.
I presume that, had I a familiar person beside me and were I more energetic, the warming-up would have been much sooner: this is how I operate.
(I have assumed you are in Russia, since you are using WebMoney?) I read one thing between the lines of your message... grasping. You are trying to reach out and catch something that is elusive... and that thing keeps eluding your grasp. But you don't "catch" friends. Like sitting in a park with birdseed in your hand, you need to be available, still, comfortable, and then the birds will come to you. I'm assuming a lot about you, but all I have to go on is this black text on a white background... but what I see is someone who is not sure of who they are, of what value they are, and yet wants other people to see what you yourself can't even see. That's a tall order. My suggestion is that you start volunteering. Go to your local food bank and volunteer. Find a local theater and volunteer there. Organizations like this are always in need of help, and are a great place to improve yourself. As you help others, you help yourself. And you discover things about yourself. And you get to see how OTHER people see you, and connect with you. And - quite honestly - these kinds of organizations always have "weirdos", and know how to deal with them. So your awkwardness won't be a problem. And as people support you, and show you gratitude for your help, that will help you find your inner value, pride, and help you become strong in your self. And keep talking. Keep communicating. Keep reading. Like fitness, it is a process that takes time and effort, but the payoffs are immeasurable. I wish you good luck and much progress!
Sure is. You made me think about this, and there's no clear answer I can give to either of the questions. This is only partly surprising to me; perhaps I always knew this but was never able to articulate it consciously. In my thoughts, I came to the conclusion that it's nothing I can work on, directly; instead, things I do and act upon make me what I am. I'm not completely shallow and empty, but there's a lot of space to build to, nonetheless. This one is a tall order for me, as well. I'm anxious even when entering a new group of people I don't have to interact with much - and a group of people I am to help? That sounds like a big obstacle for me. I'm a helper with performance anxiety, so going for volunteering might become... difficult. I'll try, though, when I come to terms with it. I've always wanted to help people, and I do feel good when I do. Thank you, goobster. I appreciate what you said.what I see is someone who is not sure of who they are, of what value they are, and yet wants other people to see what you yourself can't even see. That's a tall order.
My suggestion is that you start volunteering.
You will be surprised what happens to your social anxiety when you help other people. And, when volunteering, you find yourself surrounded by like-minded people. So that thing that seemed like such an obstacle, or a hurdle you couldn't jump, becomes nothing more than a pebble that you can step right over. I am - as you can probably tell - a very outgoing, opinionated, and boisterous person. Shyness is never something I have had to deal with. So when I am in a situation, and I see a shy person stepping up, and trying something new, I support them. I welcome them, encourage them, and make them feel valuable and valued. What I am saying is that sometimes all you need to do is make yourself available, and someone like me will take the opportunity to help you out. It's not all your responsibility to overcome every single detail. Let the helpers help you out, as well. I've always wanted to help people, and I do feel good when I do.
You know, at times, I envy people like you. Always open to others, always ready to show warmth and kindness even to those you don't know. What a gift that is. I appreciate your kindness and your helpful attitude. Thank you for sharing these thoughts with me.
Hey from what you've written here you sound a lot like a friend of mine who is in therapy for similar problems. The Inner critic is a big one and if you don't mind me asking some seemingly off topic questions I might be able to give you some advice of what he's been working on. When you work on your inner critic I imagine you address the criticism that is directed at you but how are you for being critical of others ? You've probably noticed that your criticism directed to yourself is often overblown or completely misplaced and the same can likely be said for criticism we direct to others. Most of us realize we shouldn't be critical to somebodies face but what we don't realize is that when we are talking about that person to someone else we might actually be insulting two people. We don't notice because when we like a person this seemingly huge flaw isn't even on our radar because it really was never huge to begin with. Does that make sense ? My friend would sit there being critical of every person he could and eventually some of those criticisms would apply to me. If you're in this position it might be worthwhile to start asking why you're being so critical of people. Are you looking for flaws and reasons not to get close to people ? Maybe part of you is ready to start making friends but that other part is seeking out reasons not to. My second question is how much would you say pride or ego plays a role in your life ? When we are in relationships in any form we have to trust someone and be vulnerable. This is especially true in romantic relationships however for somebody who is protecting their pride being vulnerable is not easy. I won't ramble to much since this might not even apply to you but if it does this stuff might need to be addressed before you can form proper friendships.
Your words got me thinking a lot because you hit the source of the problem spot-on. This is precisely what it is. Ever since I've thought this through, I had a fun time with people whom I'd usually criticize internally, and it's been a huge difference. Why I criticize them? Because deep down, I'm angry at how imperfect they are; at how imperfect the world is. Those children who grow up to be well-adjusted, healthy and kind adults go through what's called "ego breaking" early on in their lives. It's the process of adjusting the child's expectations of the world by breaking the innate idea that things in their lives have to be perfect or may not exist at all. It's not a violent process but a necessary step in one's mental development; it's why children throw tantrums when they're very young: they're expressing their anger over the imperfection of the world due to them being unallowed something (because this is what anger is - our reaction to an element of our world seeming unfit for what it ideally should be). I didn't go through that, instead being pampered by my parents, and I'm going through it now; though now that my idea of self is far more solid, its breaking is a more tedious and slow process than what children have. I'm telling you this because I've always been seeking improvement through understanding; if your friend is of the same mode of world-learning, they'll find this idea helpful because it gives them a reason, a ground to work on. Thank you for sharing and for inspiring me to think along those lines. It's been very helpful, as it pushes my social process forward tremendously.Are you looking for flaws and reasons not to get close to people ? Maybe part of you is ready to start making friends but that other part is seeking out reasons not to.
I'm happy this was able to help you ! My friend seemingly has the opposite issue in that he grew up around a lot of "bad" people. His issue is that he now assumes that everybody is somehow bad and is unable to form friendships because he is always suspicious of ulterior motives/busy protecting himself. It is funny how sometimes two seemingly opposite paths in life can result in the same issue.
That sounds to me like "How to Manipulate People into Doing Your Bidding": "since you're clever enough to apply these principles, you might as well reap the self-centered rewards from it". Being sincere? Sure. Being kind and compassionate? Of course!; tough, but manageable. Abusing others' selfishness to your own benefit? Go fuck yourself. I have big issues with manipulating people, especially in such subtle ways, and I very much don't want to end up what I've experienced (or what I've seen experienced) because it's a horrible way of dealing with people and nobody deserves that.
That sounds to me like "How to Manipulate People into Doing Your Bidding": "since you're clever enough to apply these principles, you might as well reap the self-centered rewards
-Where do you get that impression from what was posted? Everything listed there is good advice and extremely positive. If being a good, kind, attentive listener is manipulative, then I wish more people would manipulate me.
Steve, don't be such a hardass. I remember what you told me over PM, but I'm not talking out of my ass, either, so at least hear me out before putting words into my mouth. I never said that being a generally good person (which, one would presume, involves being a good, kind, attentive listener) is manipulative. What I said was: abusing others' selfishness to your own benefit is bad. Doing so subtly, in ways which the other person doesn't perceive (and are, I'd like to add, of no positive influence to anyone), - doubly so. With those, you're putting yourself in a higher social position with nothing but air; anyone taking even a glance of a critical look at you will see how shallow you are if that's the only way you influence people. Don't get me wrong: treating people well is what I will vote for ten days out of ten. I think people deserve to be treated well at all times and even despite certain misdemeanors: for example, being rude is forgivable when one's rude under pressure of their personal issues; shit, stealing my stuff is fine if you needed it so much more than I did (like life-and-death-or-serious-injury situations) and didn't have time or opportunity (or mindset) to ask for it, especially if it's something big. The way it's described in the book, though? No way I'm employing all of it: it would be disrespectful to others' personal space and identity to make them want to do what I wish them to do. People liking me for it is simply not worth it if I violate their right to choose by manipulating their opinion to my favour. Hell, it's called "How to Win Friends and Influence People": of course there's going to be some manipulation involved. The book has some real good advice to follow, but notice how, in the supercondensed edition posted above, there isn't a single word about respect to others, about commiting yourself to others in healthy ways so they feel that you genuinely care about them, or even about using those methods for good rather than resorting to ego-masturbation. I can only presume that the book itself is like this, as well: why would you drop such important parts when making the list? Sure, you'll have a lot of "friends" afterwards, but how does it matter if none of them's going to appreciate you for what you are rather than what you present yourself as? I'm presuming here that a lot of the users of the methods are going to be those who care more for their egos to be stroked than for genuine involvement and the sense of integrity within a relationship - which, I grant you, might not necessarily be the case, but why else would you want to employ a lot of the advice given in the book (that is, the part that tells one to "do this when that happens": sounds like a ill-intended methodological approach men and women use to date each other sometimes)? Why not go for much more common-sense, reasonable and natural method of "Hey, I like you; you're a human being, and I respect you for that unless you happen to lose that respect by doing something so bad I can't stand it; with that in mind, let's spend time together to see if we're compatible any more"? Maybe I'm not seeing things straight about this situation, but so far, this list of advice seems half good and half terrible for any human being to follow. I don't see how making others feel superficially better is of benefit to anyone. Let them like you for what you're really worth, and if you can't provide, you better start acting like a decent human being, and this list of advices won't help you with that. P.S. Shouldn't have called you a hardass. I apologize for that.