I know because "I might not be here on Friday" is harder to deal with than "I won't be here on Friday." Getting spooled up about the zen mysticism of mountaineering does the same thing always does: "you wouldn't understand you're an outsider" is an unsympathetic standpoint, particularly when your use of your time absolutely does not matter to the organization you're taking time off from. My cousin flies hot air balloons for a living. You wanna go up in a hot air balloon? You buy a ticket. Then you call to book. Then you call the morning of to see if the weather looks viable. Then you call the afternoon of to see if the weather still looks viable. Then you get to the meetup spot and see if the weather looks viable. Then you drive out to where you're launching from and see if the weather looks viable. I used to chase for him and you can scrub the launch at any point - a few times we got the gondola off the trailer, started rolling out the envelope and then called it and put it all back. It sucks, but it's what you need to do in order to make things "possible, safe and enjoyable." Every single paying passenger on his balloons is making some form of "might be busy tomorrow/hope to be busy tomorrow" scheduling conflict. During flying season? I know I might not see him for months at a time. It's how his business runs. It's not how your business runs. It's how my business runs, too - about once a week, my plans are scrubbed because my wife's plans are scrubbed. Back before we had three midwives it happened about three times a week. I took one vacation between 2002 and 2015. It cost my wife $10k in lost revenue because saying "I'm going to be gone for three days the last week in October" means every prospective client with a due date between October 1 and December 1 decides that of course those three days are going to precisely overlap with their birth. Most of my wife's friends would just not tell their clients. Oopsie! Looks like you got a different midwife! Too bad, so sad! Because realistically speaking, three days out of sixty means a five percent chance but that loss of five percent versatility means one hundred percent rejection. Watch this sleight of hand: Who's climbing the mountain, you or your employer? Then who should assume the risk of bad weather, you or your employer? 'cuz right now? You're expecting your employer to absorb it. Sure. And what I'm saying is that, based on the way you're approaching this, there may be a priority mismatch between you and your employer. This is your opportunity to close the gap. And here we are. Certainly. But if you got fired because you underestimated the stress you put on the organization then here's your opportunity to reassess the situation. I'm not saying don't climb mountains. I'm not saying don't take time off. I'm not saying don't hang out with your buddies. What I'm saying is it's hella easier for you to call in brosif than it is for your organization to spackle around your serendipity. PROTIP: every person who thinks he's saying "you just don't understand" is effectively saying "I'm just not going to bother explaining it to you." I owned a harness and Five Tens before you were born so maybe contemplate why I have an opinion rather than looking for reasons it's invalid.Okay, I'm going to go climb <mountain here> and now it's a week out and the weather is horrible, or glacier conditions or rock conditions suck due to seasonal/weather patterns from earlier in the season. So, great, I booked way out. But now it's not going to happen but the team is available the following weekend - am I going to keep the original dates or take a day or two the next week?
I'm going to take a day or two the next week...unless there's a major deadline, executive review, etc. I do have some priorities ;)
If it's that impactful that I am shifting around a couple of days then I need to look at why does that matter so much?
And if I got fired for it while still delivering results? Then I'm not the right cultural fit anyway.
You're right, and maybe this is a part of why everybody in my generation and younger are leaving their fucking jobs! Who's paying me benefits to do work for them? My employer, so yeah, they should be absorbing some amount of risk. If that priority mismatch is "this is how I operator from April through August and you get better work from me because of it" then so be it. September through March, you want basically guaranteed consistency, you got it. Okay now do the same think vs. actual exercise for people falling back on the age discussion! This is fun! In your ideal world, what would the gap look like? What would somebody do with their PTO if they had plans and had to burn it because of bad weather, conditions, etc.? Because me, as a human being, provides better value & work when I am happy, and I am happy when I'm climbing or out in nature. So I guess there's the value proposition - and yeah you could say that's a mismatch in priorities or whatever, but what's the point, man? I work to live, not live to work (yay shitty sayings, but I'm in a shitty mood, so), and if an employer were to try and make me live in a way I don't want to live then, again, maybe it's time to reconsider. I’m not running a small business. I don’t have expecting mother’s as customers. I don’t have health sensitive work. Clearly I would not be your employee, and that's okay!I know because "I might not be here on Friday" is harder to deal with than "I won't be here on Friday." Getting spooled up about the zen mysticism of mountaineering does the same thing always does: "you wouldn't understand you're an outsider" is an unsympathetic standpoint, particularly when your use of your time absolutely does not matter to the organization you're taking time off from.
Who's climbing the mountain, you or your employer? Then who should assume the risk of bad weather, you or your employer? 'cuz right now? You're expecting your employer to absorb it.
Sure. And what I'm saying is that, based on the way you're approaching this, there may be a priority mismatch between you and your employer. This is your opportunity to close the gap.
PROTIP: every person who thinks he's saying "you just don't understand" is effectively saying "I'm just not going to bother explaining it to you." I owned a harness and Five Tens before you were born so maybe contemplate why I have an opinion rather than looking for reasons it's invalid.
Found the problem. BFX wants to go climbing every Friday from April to August. He tells his employer "I'm out every Friday from April to August but I'm gonna work extra-special hard Mondays and Thursdays to cover it" and his employer, thinking BFX is an awesome get, goes along with it. BFX's group needs to get on one page so they schedule a weekly standing meeting. It can be any day of the week, except April to August, so now it's going to be Thursdays. Except we discover that BFX is busy clearing his schedule half the year so he can go climbing so it should probably be Wednesdays. BFX works with a nice lady, CGY. CGY has PT twice a month from a nasty fall she had last winter and she'd like to do it afternoon Fridays because her PT's office is the other direction from home but she can meet her girlfriend at this nice dim sum place after. Except Fridays are already skunked 'cuz BFX might be off climbing a mountain so now she does it Thursdays. They've got a coworker DHZ who's keeping it together through AA meetings. He'd love to grab them during lunch but Thursdays and Fridays are now out which gives him Monday through Wednesday. And it all works and everyone's schedule is all fine until there's wind in the pass and BFX comes in on Friday anyway and he's super-productive because he went climbing last week and it was dope. CGY is a little put off because she totally could have done her PT today except she did it yesterday. Maybe she could do it next Friday instead of next Thursday? Except nope, because we don't know what the weather will look like. But since we're all here let's get our Wednesday meeting out of the way and boy howdy it works better for everyone! Except we can't rely on this because BFX is probably climbing a mountain next week unless he's not. To you? It's a day that you can take off, or not take off, and it's no skin off anyone else's nose. To the rest of the office it's a day whose composition will change on your whim. You'll notice I didn't even get your boss involved, who you think is the only other person in this equation but lemme tell ya - CGY and DHZ aren't gonna bitch to you. They aren't going to tell you about their PT appointments or their AA meetings. They're going to tell the person who needs to make sure the machine keeps running no matter what parts decide to go alpining. SOMETHING ELSE. It's easier to tell CGY "BFX is going rock-climbing on Friday is there some other day you can do your PT?" than it is to tell CGY "BFX reserves the right to maybe go rock-climbing on Friday so you don't get to do your PT that day." "one person isn't coming in" is hella easier to deal with than "one person might not come in" because nobody wants to be told "I MIGHT need you to change your plans, depends on what the weather is for someone else's time off." If you've got time off scheduled, and the mountain isn't cooperating, go watch a movie. Go on a road trip. Visit a museum. Don't keep your coworkers guessing."this is how I operator from April through August and you get better work from me because of it"
What would somebody do with their PTO if they had plans and had to burn it because of bad weather, conditions, etc.?
Why is this so binary with you? Why are you trying to push straw men of PT appointments and AA? What is the machine that has to be kept running at all costs? Seriously- it’s not that important. I’m not keeping a ventilator running.
There's nothing binary about it. Everyone has a job. They get paid for it. We trade time for money to people who have more money than time. Doesn't matter what that job is, doesn't matter how important it is to you or to them or to anyone else. You're putting an asterisk next to everyone else's time. You're replacing a "definitely" with a "maybe" and that has ripple effects for everyone you work with. I'm attempting to draw attention to the ripples. You are arguing against the existence of the pool.
Don’t do what what you want to do is what this boils down to for you. I’m not going to apologize for having a hobby that isn’t watching a movie. I do like movies but fuck you if you think I’m going to take a day off for that. And you know what, I’m managing multiple people with young kids right now and I’m on the other side of this equation where days and hours are all over the place while they handle childcare and the like, and am often rescheduling meetings and work because of that. Would you fire them? Can you tell me how that’s different specific to the outcome? Because I am never going to equate climbing with having a child, but I will say I think the outcome is very similar to everything you just typed...and yet I have no qualms with it. Hmm.
No, it really doesn't. "Be respectful of other's schedules" is what it boils down to. You scheduled a day off. What you do with it matters not a lick to your employer. In fact, your employer is not legally allowed to ask. Everybody volunteers - there's a real whipped stepchild vibe that comes from decades of shitty work culture but "I'm taking PTO friday" is all you need. No. Childcare is not optional. No one is choosing for their kid to get sick. You are choosing to not be there on Friday - which is great! - but you are then choosing to be there after all. So rather than everyone in your workgroup dealing with your schedule once, everyone is dealing with your schedule twice. "Specific to the outcome?" There's a very real difference between having every intent of being there but being unable to because of circumstance, and having every intent of not being there but showing up anyway because of choice. The former is a burden shared, the latter is selfish.Don’t do what what you want to do is what this boils down to for you.
I do like movies but fuck you if you think I’m going to take a day off for that.
And you know what, I’m managing multiple people with young kids right now and I’m on the other side of this equation where days and hours are all over the place while they handle childcare and the like, and am often rescheduling meetings and work because of that. Would you fire them?
I don’t think we’re going to reach resolution on this discussion. I’ve made my points, you’ve made yours. I do think your perspective validates some of my thoughts on employee-employer relationships.
I hope you’ll allow me to reopen this discussion… there may be a way to resolve it after all. I was wondering why I could sympathize/agree with both of your arguments, and I think the difference is that it really matters what kind of work we’re talking about. KB is talking about mission-critical work, whereas you are (I assume) talking about a kind of modern knowledge work. Imagine going to the dentist, making an appointment and having it be a maybe until the evening before. Nobody would like that, or ever come back to the dentist again. Their work needs to be done by a particular person at a particular time and place, so it matters that promises are kept and claims on time are honored. Now imagine meeting up to write a PR strategy with some colleagues. The ground truth with a lot of knowledge work these days is that each individual contribution isn’t always critical to the outcome. Almost all of the meetings I am in do not need to happen that day or that specific place. They should probably happen that week, but if they’re postponed by a day or two the consequences are usually zero or manageable. Now that doesn’t mean each attendee’s contribution to that hypothetical PR strategy meeting is worthless; it usually just means the conclusions reached have a blind spot, or are less good than they otherwise would be. Usually, that results in one or two questions being raised during the meeting that person X who’s not there should know, so someone jots it down to ask them later, or a decision is postponed until that person has clarified a thing. Again: there are consequences, but they are low. What I’m trying to say is that any specific person’ s absence in knowledge work is largely inconsequential, which means that an uncertainty in anyone’s presence is much, much less of a problem for everyone involved. Then there’s also a difference in what happens when someone reappears. “I took PTO but I changed my mind so today I can work” sucks balls in healthcare, because there aren’t specific demands on specific persons just ready to go. On the other hand, I had this Monday blocked entirely because of a conference that I ended up not attending. Because a lot of knowledge work is divided in a small, important, focused set of work that Needs Done Now and a much larger, nearly endless list of less important / less urgent work that Needs Done, Well, Whenever, But Not Never, I could just pick stuff from those two lists and work on that instead. For the first list it means you get to improve the expectations you set earlier. “Hey, I thought I’d send you this on Monday, but I found some time to do it today so here you go!” For the second list it usually only matters that I do it, but not when or where. In other words, because the consequences of pushing knowledge work around are so much lower than that of anything KB’s used to (healthcare, engineering, …), and because it is so much less time/person/resource specific work, it really does make a difference in how much less of an annoyance it is to have someone who retracts their announced PTO.
Because BFX and I are buddies, we can talk places where nobody else can see. My perspective is not that of someone in healthcare or engineering, it's that of someone who has to deal with interpersonal beefs between employees caused by scheduling conflicts. I was speculating that, if there is a supervisor-initiated discussion about scheduling, somewhere there is beef. It may be utterly groundless beef. It may be entirely inconsequential beef. But if one of my employees says "I hate it when Lexi wears that green hoodie, she's deliberately harshing my aura" the easiest thing for me to do (not necessarily the correct thing to do) is to say "(sigh) I'll mention it to Lexi if you promise to make your best efforts to soldier on like a good little Ramthite, here I bought you an orgone now shut up." And, since we live in a "both sides"/"live my best truth" universe, I'll probably ask Lexi not to flaunt her green hoodie quite so much because I'm a spineless manager that mostly needs to justify my paycheck. I would say 95% of everything that goes wrong at the office is Someone Else's Fault, doesn't matter who you are. And since we'd much rather come at stuff obliquely than directly, Someone Else is never going to be confronted about it. "Lexi gets more Fridays off than I do" isn't something you can bitch about if Lexi made it clear she's gonna take Fridays off. But if Lexi gets more Fridays off than you do, there will be a problem of some sort that's directly attributable to Lexi not being here Friday. We actually dealt with this a few months back. Technically? to get paid for telemedicine you're supposed to only conduct business from your place of practice. No malpractice insurance for your house? Can't do zoom visits from there, gotta come into the office. Stupid? Yes. Unenforceable? Yes. Have we seen any claims kicked back? not yet... but better safe than sorry? Especially when one of our clinicians was doing her visits from her living room while her husband remodeled the kitchen behind her (not exactly HIPAA-compliant). But one of our other clinicians kicked back really hard because why does she have to come into the office? And then an in-person visit was incorrectly recorded as a televisit and the patient showed up and this all would have been avoided if we could just agree to be in the office when we say we're going to be in the office. This was a real sticking problem until we determined that this lady just doesn't like being awake before 9am, and really prefers to take it slow in the morning. So okay, we'll book you in the office from 10:30 in the morning. No problem. Now we've got versatility to do in-person visits if they come up, she can sleep in, and otherwise you come in when you need to come in. The important part was getting stuff bolted down because the absence of one person, in our office at least, affects the schedule of three other people and two rooms. TO BE CLEAR I listed a few examples where it could be an actual problem. I doubt it's an actual problem. I wasn't trying to say "BFX is wrong" I was trying to say "here's an insight as to why this meeting could be happening." I would say that as a business owner, most of our "management" is basically helping our employees put up with other people's bullshit. Fortunately for us it's almost all external to our organization.