Airlines in America have the WORST customer protection! And i hate how they don't indicate layovers on your ticket if you just land in a city and stay in your seat for one hour... Didn't even know this was a thing, but now i'll be more careful to check for "stop overs" on top of "layovers" I think the best airline I ever flew was Japan airline. We got METAL CUTLERY with our meal - can you imagine? So nice to feel like a human being with real utensils... And japanese ramen, with some haggen daz ice cream in the end. The first time ever I enjoyed airplane food! KLM is pretty good too :)
First class just means they'll actually get to you in a reasonable amount of time to get you your drink of choice and a slightly better snack. ooh, it's a bag of fancy chips, in a basket with ten other items that normally would cost me $2, but I'm supposed to be excited about it. But, there's definitely more leg room and elbow room. And you are the first off of the plane. You're also the first on the plane, which only matters for the sake of getting a drink, quickly. Otherwise, who is itching to board first? I mostly fly Delta. First class and "Comfort" have very little difference. I don't pay for either, but it's rare these days that I'm not upgraded to either. That said, "coach" is demonstrably worse than both. No leg room. No service and when you're in 34D it takes you 15 minutes longer to deplane than when you're in 8D. I have no doubt that first class in the 80s actually was first class.
Through an odd chain of events, Pan American Airlines purchased my mother's environmental lab in the '80s despite the fact that it had nothing to do with travel, air or otherwise. Which meant we flew Pan Am 75% off... if we wore formal dress, and if we flew standby. Which meant flying first class ensured you were more likely to get on the plane and since 25% of 200% is still 50% off, we went to Europe that way. First Class on Pan Am in the '80s meant free slippers, a free eye mask, a free sewing kit, free drinks (they didn't card me at 15; it was dope), an interminable period in an ill-fitting Haggar 3-piece and an endless buffet of largely forgettable food. The elbow room was the same, the leg room was the same, and I remember watching Ghostbusters 2 overdubbed in German because the English channel was on the fritz. Now? first class generally means you're a frequent flyer, which means you get a human amount of elbow and leg room. And steel cutlery. And glass drinkware. Really, flying first class is like riding the train but faster. I imagine things are very different on those ridiculous Emirates 380s and the like... And yes. Not having to wait for 30 rows of people is definitely a blessing.
A Canadian friend of mine who works in Dubai has been upgraded to whatever the premiere First Class is called on Emirates FOUR times. She has basically a whole suite to herself. TV, wine, bed, etc. I can't imagine what the retail on a seat like that is. $10k? $30k? I have zero knowledge of life at that level.
First Class, Round Trip, from Seattle to Dubai in the middle of the week in October will run $30k...the only reason I know this is from just now looking it up. Wow.
I've reread the CEO's employee letter three times now and it just pisses me off more and more. He's just saying "I too am upset at the unfair bad press we're getting over a paying customer we chose to eject from his seat." The lesson he and United are going to take from this won't be "we need to find better ways of scheduling planes and crew and finding volunteer bumps" but rather "we need to find ways to stick with our status quo but not have videos of passengers dragged down the aisle." I agree with his declared support for employees but am frustrated at his lack of humility. This is a leadership failure, and I don't think he knows it.
I'm ok defending the employees. Each of them did as they were told and trained to respond. I know that was a defense rejected at Nuremberg, but I think it's fair here. But I have no defense for United. They failed to see that the steps they trained their employees to take could be seen by passengers and the public as hostile to customers under some circumstances. And when faced with a negative public response, they're still failing to see any blame rests with them. I took root cause analysis training last summer. The CEO's letter suggests the root cause is the passenger's belligerence. But that isn't the root cause.
Since flying United for me means connecting through O'Hare I was defacto boycotting them already. But this is insane.
I haven't flown United since 2007. However, I bought a ticket on United last summer. 10 days notice. Two days after I bought it they announced a "schedule change." My non-stop from LAX to Seattle had become a 9-hour layover in Phoenix. Also, the plane type had changed. Curious, I looked to see if United was still flying the leg I was on. Guess what? The same plane was still flying from LAX to Seattle at the exact time and date I had booked... except the flight number was different. And the ticket price had gone from $120 to $1477. United tried to argue that they weren't going to refund my fare because fuck you, that's why, if I wanted on the flight I'd bought I could pay $1477 (after all, my ticket was non-refundable). So I dug into their boilerplate and turns out, even though they wish you didn't read it, it says that if they add a layover with schedule changes you get out no-fuss, no muss. When I pointed this out to United (while also pointing out that my ticket was bought with a credit card that says "ALASKA AIRLINES" across the front) they said they'd get the money back to me in 4-6 weeks. I told 'em they had 'til the end of the day before I reversed charges on the credit card. Money was miraculously reversed an hour later. Fuck United.
Clarifying: what you can do is "dispute charges." What the credit card can do is "reverse charges." The credit cards work because consumers trust them. As such, credit cards will shit all over a merchant before they'll upset a consumer. They won't aid fraud, however. They've got an agreement with you and they've got an agreement with them and they've got verbiage in both agreements that says they're the final arbiter of all disputes but because of that whole "trust" thing they'll side with you if you can make a half-way decent case that you were wronged. I've probably disputed credit card charges a half-dozen times in my life. They've always gone in my favor. The biggest one was a mechanic that charged me $1700 without fixing the problem; worse than that, they didn't hook my heater hoses back up so my car vomited all of its coolant all over Ventura blvd. and started overheating again. That one took a 3-page essay with photographs. The smallest one was against Radio Shack that refused to honor a money-back guarantee on a soldering iron that straight-up didn't light. If you can copy-paste an agreement in which they expressly state they will do what they expressly aren't doing, the process moves at a brisk pace.
I love your writing. Basically, what you did is warn them before engaging into a tiresome legal dispute - is that what you did? is that why they played nice?worse than that, they didn't hook my heater hoses back up so my car vomited all of its coolant all over Ventura blvd. and started overheating again.
What I did was remind them that they were going to lose the money either way; it was their choice whether they wanted to be magnanimous or petulant about it. Magnanimous almost always wins. After all, if you choose to give the money back, you're in control. Just ask any 4-year-old.
While I do agree that this is an awful way to treat your customers, I have seen quite a few people going bananas over United's overbooking strategy. "Didn't he pay for his seat? How can United sell seats they don't have??!" That just isn't how airlines work these days. I dug up my textbook from airline industry expert Peter Belobaba: Why is overbooking even necessary? The simple answer is that airlines have historically allowed their passengers to make reservations (which removes seats from the airline’s available inventory) and then to “no-show” with little or no penalty. In very few other service or manufacturing industries can the consumer “promise” to buy a product or service and then change his or her mind at the last minute with little or no penalty. The economic motivation for airline overbooking is substantial. In the USA, domestic airline no-show rates average 10–15% of final pre-departure bookings, and can exceed 20% during peak holiday periods. Although there are substantial regional differences, average no-show rates are almost as high throughout the rest of the world. Given that most airlines struggle to attain a consistent operating profit, the loss of 10–15% of potential revenues on fully booked flights (which would occur without overbooking) represents a major negative impact on profits. Another thing he points out is that DB costs are almost always lower than SP costs, especially since optimizing for low SP costs means accepting a structural, large loss. DB costs can also be compensated for with upgrades, free tickets and lounge access, all far lower than the profitability of a few seats. Especially since US airlines have been quite good at getting regular passengers to give up their seats voluntarily:If too many reservations are accepted and more passengers show up at departure time than there are physical seats, the airline must deal with the costs and customer service issues of denied boardings (DB). On the other hand, if not enough reservations are accepted for the flight and the no-show behavior of passengers is greater than expected by the airline, there are costs associated with the lost revenue from empty seats that could otherwise have been occupied, also known as spoilage (SP). The more specific objective of most airline overbooking models is therefore to minimize the total combined costs and risks of denied boardings and spoilage (lost revenue).
With the help of voluntary DB programs, the largest US airlines have become extremely successful in managing DB and the associated costs, despite what is perceived to be very aggressive overbooking to reduce the revenue losses associated with spoilage. The involuntary DB rate among US major airlines in 2007 was only 1.12 per 10 000 passengers boarded (US DOT, 2008). Over 90% of all DB in the USA are volunteers, meaning that the total DB rate for US airlines was about 12 per 10 000 passengers boarded. This total is in line with world airline industry standards of 12 to 15 per 10 000. But the important point is that US airlines are able to report lower involuntary DB rates than most world airlines, thanks to effective voluntary DB programs.
Yeah, gonna have to go ahead and call bullshit on your entire fucking textbook. PREMISE: Nope, sorry. If you're hitting me for multiple hundreds of dollars of nonrefundable travel, we have an agreement that in exchange for the money I paid you, you take me where you promised I will go. That you think this isn't our agreement simply because you've got a bunch of boilerplate that says otherwise illustrates that you are operating in bad faith. That all your competitors do the same thing is an illustration of collusion. And if you want to see how that sits with your passengers, just wait for the lawsuits. PREMISE: Key word: "Historically." This has not been true for at least two decades. Sure - all the airlines offer "refundable" airfares. They generally cost between two and four times as much as refundable airfares. And, as the low-cost non-refundable carriers have eaten into the profit margins of traditional carriers (like United) the non-refundable fares have gotten more and more expensive. Now? Now you lose 100% of the value of the ticket if you don't check in both ways (been there, done that) because while the airlines assume you recognize that you're paying exorbitant sums for the illusion of guaranteed travel, should you buy two round-trip tickets that are cheaper than one round-trip tickets on the dates you want, the airlines will cancel all four legs because fuck you, that's why. PREMISE: Holy shit! It's almost like non-refundable fares are so much cheaper than refundable ones that it pencils out to buy three of them instead of one refundable one, especially with how fucked up the pricing is! I know - let's blame the customer. Premise: So... the fact that airlines can't profit without treating customers like cargo is the customer's fault how? PREMISE: Yeah, they fuck you there, too. $200 airline voucher? You know what that actually is? It's $200 that must be redeemed in person at a ticket counter within the next 365 days for a full-fare ticket. Which means that "discounted" fare of $200 that you want to buy? Yeah, if you use that voucher you owe the airline $600 because it's actually an $800 ticket. I suspect your shitheel Peter Belobaba is one of the reasons things have gotten as shitty as they have and make no mistake: everything you quote is an airline industry asshole justifying why the airline industry is entitled to be assholes to everyone. And fuck them all. "Didn't he pay for his seat? How can United sell seats they don't have??!" That just isn't how airlines work these days.
Why is overbooking even necessary? The simple answer is that airlines have historically allowed their passengers to make reservations (which removes seats from the airline’s available inventory) and then to “no-show” with little or no penalty.
In the USA, domestic airline no-show rates average 10–15% of final pre-departure bookings, and can exceed 20% during peak holiday periods.
Given that most airlines struggle to attain a consistent operating profit, the loss of 10–15% of potential revenues on fully booked flights (which would occur without overbooking) represents a major negative impact on profits.
DB costs can also be compensated for with upgrades, free tickets and lounge access, all far lower than the profitability of a few seats.
Okay, I was under the impression that most regular airline tickets are still mostly refundable and / or easily canceled. I also didn't know that the money they offer is a voucher; European airlines hand out actual money, usually the same day. What I was mostly defending was the strategy of airlines responding to regular no-shows and how I think it's not surprising to expect a large, profit-hungry airline to overbook just to make sure planes are full. It's the 'ZOMG overbooking is evil' responses that I thought were unfounded and not the issue here. They should've just offered more or rerouted the United crew.
There are no regular no-shows any longer. And watch this space: Most airline employees fly standby. They don't pay full-fare and, if they're crew, they don't pay at all. This is a perq of being an airline employee and most of the crew and stewards I know use it a lot. So when American says it needed to get crew to Louisville... ...I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they weren't even essential personnel. Because really? if United really needed to drag a doctor off the plane to make room for crew, that's United saying "we aren't just overbooking, we're cutting into our overbook margin to cover our staffing shortfalls." And if they were doing that regularly they'd have procedures. They'd have policies. And most importantly? They have reciprocity with just about every other carrier. There's an American that takes off an hour later. Shit, linear will put you in a learjet for $1k per person. This is me, looking this up as a consumer, on fucking Kayak. I think somebody fucked up BIG at United and they're flat-footedly trying to figure out how to differentiate their typical neutral-evil behavior from their current chaotic-evil move.
they are, just not same day. fucking up and missing your flight is different from deciding to change something around a couple days in advance. for the latter you won't get a full refund, but they'll work with you. this is the major advantage of booking directly with airlines rather than using cheaper third party travel agenciesOkay, I was under the impression that most regular airline tickets are still mostly refundable and / or easily canceled.
I have no idea what magical fantasy flights you're booking, but United charges $200/$400, Delta offers a $200/$450 rescheduling fee, Alaska's at $175 and Virgin is at $100 (which, since they don't do round trip, means it's actually $200). I had a $159 ticket from Los Angeles to Seattle. I was going to help my uncle haul a trailer. Then the person who needed the trailer hauled backed out. So I called up Alaska to cancel my ticket. They tried to charge me $16. To the best of my knowledge, all of the above require you to book directly with them and don't entertain third party tickets.
Ignoring the textbook stuff, I think the issue is not seeking volunteers. No volunteers? Offer more money. That's the overbooking strategy I have an issue with. Overbook, fine, but don't kick people off planes when there aren't volunteers at the price you want to pay.While I do agree that this is an awful way to treat your customers, I have seen quite a few people going bananas over United's overbooking strategy. "Didn't he pay for his seat? How can United sell seats they don't have??!" That just isn't how airlines work these days.
Vox is arguing that the FAA's own guidebook says $1350, not $800, and that it's up to the airline to negotiate more. The problems are 1) Nobody is flying Chicago to Louisville on a Sunday evening for fun 2) People flying Chicago to Louisville on a Sunday evening do it regularly 3) People who fly that leg regularly have a pretty good idea how delayed, shitty and overbooked United tends to be on that leg 4) People with an idea of how shitty and overbooked United tends to be have probably gotten worthless vouchers before 5) People who have gotten worthless vouchers before are not eager to get more worthless vouchers 6) It boggles the mind that a paying customer could be forcefully removed from a flight because United couldn't solve their bullshit crew problems. This is a flight full of people going "there's no way United could be that shitty" and a country full of people going "wow. United is shitty."