So a little under a month ago, I asked a bunch of you Anime fans of Hubski for advice on series to watch. The advice I got was amazing and also a bit overwhelming, but a lot of your recommendations stood out to me. War and early everyone else recommended Samurai Champloo and Ghost in the Shell so they're on the list of things for me to see. In fact, I have a free day today (thank God cause I'm up so late) and I see that the Ghost in the Shell movie is on Hulu, so I'm gonna watch that today. Seeing as how almost everyone mentioned it, I'm hoping I'm in for a treat. I also am going to see if I can get my hands on the three original animes that make up the Robotech Series like kleinbl00 suggested, but seeing as how none of them are on Hulu or Netflix at the moment, it might have to wait a bit (no, I will not torrent). While I haven't checked out Fist of the North Star yet, it's also on the list to see and I'm also gonna look further into a lot of what vile and snoodog suggested, see if there's anything that catches my fancy.
So at this point, you're probably thinking to yourself “Well damn, it sounds like rd95 hasn't watched anything yet. What the hell?” Don't worry. They're all on the list and I fully intend to check out each one of them. Talking to one of my good friends just last week though, he recommended something to me knowing my taste in pop culture. Knowing I love pulpy shit, comic books, and cheap western novels by Louis L'Amour, he recommended I get on Hulu, find everything from the '70s to the early '80s that caught my eye and start there. Seeing as how they're older, I'd be enamored by their dated charm as well as more forgiving of their flaws. Tonight/this morning, I did just that. Here's my thoughts on what I saw, in chronological order of series release, not in order of which I viewed them . . .
Gatchaman – I've seen two episodes of this so far. I was a bit skeptical going in. When it comes to hero stories, I'm not a huge fan of team dynamics. When you're focusing on so many main characters, character development can sometimes suffer and heroes are easily written to fit particular tropes. This show seems to be no different so far, with Ken, the boy scout team leader, Joe the bad ass with a hot streak, Jinpei the light hearted character who also fits the Robin/Speedy teenage hero part, Jun the token female member and possible love interest of Ken, and lastly Ryu, the guy who's just kind of there. Being a fan of Godzilla films growing up, I do have to say that the first episode was great. With a giant robot bent on wreaking havoc and the Japanese defense forces' tanks being utterly useless in stopping it, I felt like I was watching a Kaiju film. The animation in this show is very inconsistent in quality (think the '80s Transformers movie level of inconsistent) but I think that's very forgivable seeing how old it is. That said, the up close hero shots are actually very well drawn and look downright beautiful so I enjoy seeing them come on screen. One thing I did notice, is that in both episodes they did insert a few seconds of live film into the cartoon for explosions and water effects. It'll be interesting to see if that's something they'll continue to do. I'd also like to mention that even though it's a super hero show, I'm kind of getting some Thunderbirds vibes from it. I might stick with it a little bit, but I don't feel compelled to watch this show to the end.
Casshan – I've only seen the first episode but I'm kind of digging it so far. It's definitely got some campy sci-fi tropes, from a robot uprising to turning a dog and a man into androids to fight said robots. It also had a scene depicting the inability of the military to stop the robot menace. While the story isn't anything particularly amazing (and it actually reminds me a bit of the premise behind Gold Key's Magnus: Robot Fighter which was a classic comic book series from the '60s) I like what I'm seeing so far, animation wise. The artists seem to take particular care to make the action scenes involving Casshan look as fluid and exciting as possible. While the story isn't particularly grabbing, I'll probably watch a few more episodes just to get a feel for it. It's another show where I don't feel compelled to watch to the end, but I might end up changing my mind. Who knows?
Starblazers - determinedkid will probably be sad to see that I'm watching the American adaptation, but unfortunately Hulu doesn't have the Japanese original. What's interesting to me, is that even though this came out two years later than Gatchaman, the quality of the animation seems to be lower. The colors aren't as bright and crisp, which might be both due to the setting of the actual story as well as poor preservation techniques, and the animation itself often feels stiff and awkward. It's not enough to push me away, but just something a bit interesting. I started watching this around the time I made the anime advice thread, so I'm about fifteen episodes in and to be honest, while I love it for its campiness, I find it kind of boring. The story seems to be taking forever to unfold, meandering about just like the crew of the Argo. Is it fun? Yes. Is it creative? I dunno. I like it. But then again, I liked the original Star Trek series but never felt compelled to finish that one either. Seeing as how this has three seasons, I think finishing it might be a bit of a chore.
Space Pirate Captain Harlock – UGH! WHAT IS THIS?! I DON'T LIKE THIS AT ALL! I only watched one episode and that was more than enough for me. It's got a lot of what I don't like about pulp stories. It has a seemingly bad ass protagonist who doesn't actually do anything bad ass, a sub plot with a little child that you don't know anything about yet which would be great for building mystery but the whole thing reeks of forced sentimentality, a military/police force that is so incompetent that they're not a believable element in the story. I'm sure the more I watched, the more I'd end up hating, but a single episode was enough to convince me that this is probably not my bag. As a side note, the colors in the one episode I watched were both very grainy and very dark. I don't think the originals that this digital copy was made from was well preserved and that makes me sad.
Space Adventure Cobra – I am two episodes into this and I'm super excited about this show and also super conflicted. On the one hand, I think this might be my jam. The characters and set design of this cartoon absolutely scream '80s sci-fi and some of the animation is downright gorgeous, both the characters themselves as well as the painted backgrounds. The hero strikes me as a bad ass, flawed, but not an asshole and his partner, a female android also shows promise. That said, there's some things that rub me the wrong way. I've never been a fan of the bikini clad woman as a trophy trope and seeing as how that trope showed up in the second episode, I'm really hoping this doesn't become a trend. Also worrying, the hero's main weapon, his Psycho-Gun is overpowered as hell, seeing as how he can fire with pinpoint accuracy and change the direction of his shots mid-flight. I really hope the writers of this series find new and inventive ways to make him vulnerable. That said though, the first two episodes were still a hell of a lot of fun so I'm gonna see where this goes.
Patlabor: The TV Series – Apparently there's a lot of Patlabor cartoons, so I made sure to link to the right one so you guys know which one I'm referring to. While this isn't from the '70s or '80s, like Starblazers, I started watching this around the time I made the anime suggestion thread so I thought I should include it in this list for that reason alone. Similarly, I'm pretty far ahead in this one too, though I have to admit I slept through about six or seven episodes and haven't felt compelled to re-watch them. I thought this series had some promise. It's a police drama with big robots. How could you mess it up? You could make it boring. That's how. That's what they did. They made this show boring, boring, boooring. I saw The Patlabor movie years and years ago and I remember liking it a lot. It's also on Hulu, I think I'll watch it after Ghost in the Shell tomorrow to see if it's as good as I remember it.
Meh... I can't read all this... To many words... All I read were the first few sentences, and if I were to recommend one, it would be Phantom-Requim for the phantom, It's got action, drama, and some nice gunplay if you ask me. And it's only about 27 episodes long.
I wish I'd thought to recommend Casshan, because I'm a big fan of the franchise as a whole. That said, I found the original series tough to get into at first too. But it's got fantastic sound design and manages to avoid getting monotonous by introducing sort of a travelogue-like feel. The fights, although they reuse a lot of animation, are kept really fresh too. If you do decide to continue, there are some great episodes later on.
If you don't mind my asking, what draws you to Casshan? I don't often talk to a lot of people who are into the really old stuff unless they're absolute classics, whether we're talking movies, comics, or television. People seem to have a hard time enjoying things when they feel dated, when to me, that adds to their charm. For example, my wife rolled her eyes and groaned when I got excited to see that Hulu has shows like The Dick Van Dyke Show. I don't mind in the slightest. I sometimes have Turner Classic Movies playing on in the background when I'm doing chores around the house.
What got me interested in the franchise as a whole was actually the much more recent series Casshern Sins, which is only very loosely based on the original series. Casshan and Casshern Sins appeal to me in different ways. A lot of Casshan's appeal is simple entertainment. I like the way it looks and sounds, and I like seeing Casshan defeat the enemy of the week using his distinctive acrobatic fighting style. But what really draws me to Casshan more than most series like it is the travelogue aspect of the show. I love seeing the effect that the conflict between Casshan and Andro Force has on civilians and how those civilians affect the conflict. It's not all that ambitious, but it makes Casshan more interesting than the average action anime.
I'm only six episodes in, but I do like the fight scenes. They really try to make Casshan look equal parts strong, agile, and cunning and despite some flaws in the animation, they really pull it off. I've never seen the '70s Spider-Man cartoon, but seeing as how he's supposed to have similar traits, I wonder how well the two compare. I haven't picked up on the travelogue aspect, but I will say that I think their choice for aesthetics is very interesting. Everything from the architecture to the design of the robots to the clothing the extras where all really have an early 1900s Eastern Europe vibe going for them. It's an interesting choice.
Full disclosure: I recommended Genesis Climber Mospeada, merely the third series that makes up Robotech. I'm pretty certain nobody would recommend the 2nd series and I've never been that into Macross. I tried Gatchaman Crowds and it was awful. Patlabor is from '89. Seriously influential on mecha design. FWIW, Bandai has re-released most of the model kits from Patlabor so my local hobby shop is drowning in them. And you're right. It's boring. Technically it's called "Slice of life anime" and I hate it. I'll also point out that you skimmed right the fuck over my big recommendations, which were Lain, Madoka Magica and Psycho Pass, all three of which we actually covered under #animeclub so wtf ever, bro, go sit there and watch Star Blazers and maintain "you were never much of a fan of anime" as if that were somehow anime's fault. ;-)
HOLY LORD. Yes to Psycho Pass (at least Season 1, haven't gotten around to 2 yet). Pardon me for jacking in at random spots, still not sure the best places to pop in at this point. And from the little I've scraped so far, so long as you're looking toward Samurai Champloo, I'd recommend Cowboy Bebop as the one to go to as well. It's definitely in similar vein so far as classics, and, in fact, made by the same person as Champloo. This is in a different direction of sorts, although if/when ever you find yourself in Manga for any odd reason, I'd recommend Gantz with the weight of everything I am. It's a phenomenal epic of a Manga beautifully illustrating the hero's journey in its own way; furthermore, I Am a Hero. But I digress. I'm more so into the short 12-24 episode anime series. They can take time to go into where movies can't in some ways. Although, Rurouni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal is in the style of 3 short movies that earned its merit in its own rite (right?). If you'd like me to expand on any of these with theme/plot or the like, feel free to post and I'll expound all I can without spoilers.
Gotcha. If it's just the one, I'll see if I can't hunt that down at a local shop or something. The price for the box set on Amazon seems unreasonably high. True story? I like giant robot cartoons for the toys and Bandai has made some awesome shit through the years. Teenage me would have probably geeked at the idea of getting my hands on some Patlabor model kits. Have you seen the 16 Episode Series of Patlabor? Is it any better or do you think it's skippable? Can I be honest? I'm gonna be honest here. I will fully admit that I intentionally glossed over those particular titles. All three of those cartoons seem really and uncomfortably weird to me and I didn't want to hurt your feelings or feel like I was snubbing your suggestions. It's like someone telling me that I need to see Eraserhead or A Clockwork Orange because they're classic cinema, but I've seen bits and pieces of both and know enough of both that I'd be extremely uncomfortable watching them and wouldn't appreciate them. I feel the same is true for those three titles from what I read about them on Wikipedia. I'm sorry. :/Genesis Climber Mospeada
Patlabor is from '89. Seriously influential on mecha design. FWIW, Bandai has re-released most of the model kits from Patlabor so my local hobby shop is drowning in them. And you're right. It's boring. Technically it's called "Slice of life anime" and I hate it.
I'll also point out that you skimmed right the fuck over my big recommendations, which were Lain, Madoka Magica and Psycho Pass, all three of which we actually covered under #animeclub so wtf ever, bro, go sit there and watch Star Blazers and maintain "you were never much of a fan of anime" as if that were somehow anime's fault. ;-)
I'm gonna say this you are missing out on some seriously great writing, and doing yourself a huge disservice not watching any of those. I can understand the hesitation with something like madoka because visually it is uncomfortable (I think for good reason). Psycho pass is gritty though and makes quite a few political statements and paints a very interesting design of the future. I just hope at the end you don't make any really conclusions about anime without exploring its deeper side as an art form. Unrelated, I don't know if I suggested it before, but Akira is a short watch, but really good.Can I be honest? I'm gonna be honest here. I will fully admit that I intentionally glossed over those particular titles. All three of those cartoons seem really and uncomfortably weird to me and I didn't want to hurt your feelings or feel like I was snubbing your suggestions.
1) Netflix had Genesis Climber Mospeada on disc at least as late as 2011. They probably still do. Old school, I know, but there it is. 2) I made it about five episodes into Patlabor and then decided I didn't really care enough. I think I made it eight into Planetes. 3) It's insulting that you'd disregard the recommendations of others because of a blurb you read on Wikipedia. not going to sugar-coat that. Babe is about a talking pig and it's fucking amazing and you know it. When you specifically call me out, and I specifically call something "one of the top two or three television series ever made, right up there with The Wire" it's a straight-up dick move to not give me the benefit of the doubt, particularly when you're sitting here waxing eloquent about Ghost in the Shell. Fuckin' Wikipedia. Congrats. You successfully hurt my feelings and snubbed my suggestions.
I have no problem going old school. I'll look into doing Netflix's mail service to check it out. It might open me up to more options too, which is always great. I think I'll probably give up on Patlabor then. If it feels like there's more effort to watching it than I get out of enjoying it, there's not much point. So, with the three cartoons that I glossed over. I didn't gloss over them to hurt your feelings in the slightest and I am truly sorry because your opinions and advice is highly valued by me. If it makes you feel any better, I didn't try to wax eloquent about A Ghost in the Shell, just give it a fair shake. I wasn't blown away by it like I was watching say, Princess Monoke if we're talking about anime or A Fistful of Dollars and Yojimbo if we're talking about films in general. There's a lot going on with all three that make me feel iffy about them, some of them having to do with the actual premises of the shows and some of them about the stereotypes and cultural context that revolves around anime in general. If you want, I have the afternoon free and I think I'd be somewhat willing to talk on here why I'm uncomfortable with all free, though I don't know how comfortable I'd be talking about something that makes me uncomfortable because I don't know how deep that rabbit hole I'd want to go down. If you want to talk about them though, because I do think there's some good insight though, let me know. It might lead to something interesting.
It still boils down to you disregarding a solicited opinion in favor of your personal opinion of a crowdsourced distillation. Particularly when I said the best way to experience Madoka is to go into it blind with no expectations. You can't talk about why you're uncomfortable with all three because you don't know anything about them - you're uncomfortable with your interpretation of Wiki's interpretation of them and you're still placing that second-level distillation above first-hand recommendations that you specifically requested, and it's still a dick move. But sure - explain to me why an anime about a transvestite lounge singer attempting to defeat a world filled with alien sympathizers is A-OK but a deconstruction of Sailor Moon gives you the willies.
Fuck it. Shit's too hard. I've been trying for two hours typing everything out and I'm not even half done. The TL:DR of it? I'm a snobbish prude who is often afraid to try new things out of my comfort zone for a myriad of reasons, many legit but some probably silly. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings bro. I really am. I'm more torn up about that than anything. Also, I don't know what show has a transvestite lounge singer who uses her powers to manipulate people, but that sounds kind of fucked up. I'm gonna go for a drive.
That's fine. List five movies you love and why and five movies you hate and why. I'm willing to bet you won't surprise me. There's a long list of anime that I wouldn't recommend because some of it is straight-up freaky and I'm not gonna suggest Takashi Miike to people that I don't think are well within the parameters of liking a Miike film, but no one is suggesting you watch something that wasn't legit on broadcast television. It comes down to trust. Do you have reason to trust my recommendations? Yes. Do you have reason to distrust my recommendations? Not as of yet. And it's not like I'm asking you to jump out of a plane. And it's not like you started this discussion with "but don't recommend anything with bananas in it because I have a phobia." And it's not like the stuff that's a little weird I didn't put straight up front: But keep in mind: That was deemed so innocuous that it was shown to American kids after school on broadcast television. So if that's some sort of bizarre trigger warning for you, that's the sort of thing you want to disclose ahead of time. Like I did. Here's what you outlined: So. Either you trust me to not recommend something with "over the top violence, sex and gore" or you don't. And if you don't, why even ask?and then we follow a band of guerillas as they try to find their pickup point while also discovering that most of humanity doesn't much mind oppressive alien domination. Also one of the fighter pilots is a transvestite lounge singer named Yellow Belmont because Japan.
here's a lot of things that turn me off, needlessly drawn out plotlines (Dragonball Z and Initial D come to mind), overly sentimental characters (what's with an emotional monologue in the heat of battle?), weird shit with teenage kids, over the top violence, sex, and gore that arguably doesn't have artistic merit, etc.
I love A LOT of movies, of all sorts of genres from westerns and heist films to comedies to indy films with certain attributes that make them good, even if they're a bit hard to pin down. Here's a list of five that I picked by staring at my DVD shelf and just going with whatever stood out to me. Yojimbo / A Fistful of Dollars – For all intents and purposes, I put these films together almost all the time, as one is pretty much a direct remake of the other. I absolutely love them both though, and think they're two of the best examples of their genres, Samurai Stories and Westerns. The protagonist is strong willed, a skilled fighter, and a surprisingly compassionate person. He uses his wits to not only navigate around a difficult situation in a small town, but navigate it in such a way that he comes out on top. In both films much the supporting cast feel very fleshed out and believable, making you as a viewer that much more concerned about not what just happens to the hero, but everyone involved. Both films are wonderfully paced and beautifully shot. The fact that they're over 50 years old at this point but don't feel a bit dated to me is a testament to how well they were made. Lawless – I am going to admit right off the bat that this movie isn't anything spectacular, but it's not awful either There are two things about this movie though that I absolutely love. I absolutely love the overall theme of the character Jack Bondurant stepping out his older brothers' shadows, learning to become a man of value in his own way on his own terms. Instead of muscles, he uses his brains. Instead of playing it safe, he tries something new and takes risks in hopes of a big payoff. At the same time, he falls victim to his own hubris and it comes to bite him in the ass. The other thing I love about this movie? The villain, Charlie Rakes. He's scum. Creepy, violent, nasty, weird, scum. Watching this movie with the scenes he's in is so cathartic because he's just so, so enjoyable to hate and despise. This movie is pretty violent though, very brutal and realistic, but it fits in the context of the film and the story being told, so I don't feel it's gratuitous or over the top. Though, I do think it could be have been toned down a notch or two without much being lost. Smokey and the Bandit – This movie is '70s camp and light hearted action done perfectly. Every character is enjoyable in their own way and all of the actors have great comedic timing and chemistry with each other. While the camera work doesn't strike me as anything really revolutionary, they did an amazing job just capturing the thrill and the feeling of an amazing car, The Bandit Trans AM. It definitely feels dated and it definitely feels like it's a product of its time, but that doesn't in any way take away from this movie at all. It's just fun, fun, fun. The Rocketeer – There have been a lot of films through the years with classic pulp themes, from loved classics like Indiana Jones to dud adaptations like The Phantom. The one that sticks out to me the most as my favorite (not the best though, I think Indy probably gets that title) is The Rocketeer. There is so much I love about this movie, from the set design to props and costumes to the casting to the overall pace of the film as the story unfolds. The story itself is great, but the overall feel and tone of the movie really makes it memorable for me. When I first learned that Joe Johnston was going to direct the first Captain America movie, I got excited as hell and I knew he was going to do the material justice, all because of how wonderful I feel The Rocketeer turned out to be. Frank – Someone told me there's a deeper, underlying spiritual element to this film. I've watched it twice and haven't figured it out for myself yet, but I'll take his word for it. The message I pull away from it though, is that it's more important to embrace who you are and run with it than it is to sell out and try to be successful. Underlying messages aside, I absolutely love it for the characters involved and how they all interact with each other and how they're each fucked up and flawed in their own little ways. Other movies worth mentioning, Alien, Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels, Nine Queens, Drive, The Good, The Bad, The Weird, The Fifth Element, and way, way more. Seriously, I fucking love movies. Movies I hate. I've seen some bad movies. More than my fair share. The world of film is full of junk like The Day After Tomorrow and Without a Paddle. There are some movies though, that are arguably quite good, but just aren't my cup of tea for some reason or another, for example I think that Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy is pretentious and poorly written. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon – God. I wanted to enjoy this movie so bad, even watching it at two separate times in my life. It has a lot going for it on paper, being a critically acclaimed operatic story with some very deep themes. It's beautifully shot, well written, and is a perfect example as to how Eastern Cinema can potentially offer great films that the Western World can appreciate, both in terms of critical acclaim as well as financial success. That said, it's also incredibly dense and incredibly dull. The fact that I've seen this movie twice and can barely remember much of it says a lot as to how hard it was to pay attention and I love foreign films and martial arts films, though I'll readily admit Wuxia films aren't always my thing. The Texas Chainsaw Massacre Remake – Even though the horror genre isn't my cup of tea and I very rarely watch them, I'm willing to admit that there are movies in the genre that have artistic merit. I don't think this film is one of them. It is obscenely violent, gory, and senselessly cruel and I think instead of aiming to scare people through excitement and suspense, it aimed to scare them through miserable scenes and images. It's been over a decade since I've seen this movie and to this day I still regret it. M.A.S.H. – I love comedies and satires of all decades, from the Marx Brothers films to films like Airplane and Hot Shots to more recent films like The Hangover. I love M.A.S.H. the television series. I really, really wanted to love this film, but I didn't. The whole thing though felt like one big, disconnected mess. To me, it just seemed to wander, with no real big picture or goal in mind. It's not a bad film, it just didn't do it for me. In my mind, it'll always be that movie where a bunch of war surgeons did a bunch of random things until everyone decided to get together and play football. Full Metal Jacket – I'm not going to lie. I stopped watching this movie immediately after Pyle's suicide scene in the bathroom. Emotionally, this movie was just way too much to handle. I think that's actually a pretty good testament to Kubrick's ability to tell a story. American Gangster – I would arguably call this a good film. The story is compelling, it's well shot, wonderfully paced, captures the feel of the period very well, and overall it's just very well done. I don't think though, that I can honestly say I enjoyed it. None of the characters felt emotionally compelling to me to where I was concerned about who they were, what they were doing, and what was going to happen to them. Similarly, there is a very real, developing plot throughout the film, but the whole time it seems like less of a story and more like just a series of events. I hate to sound pretentious as fuck here, but to me it felt very competently made but also very bland. I don't want bland from my movies. If I want bland, I'll eat a bowl of white rice flavored with salt and a touch of butter. As for the recommendations, I do trust you, very much so and I do very much value your input. So much so that when you recommend stuff to other people, I often find myself opening a tab to see what you're talking about. I think though, that in my mind, my asking for recommendations isn't a social obligation on my part to check everything out. If I did, I'd never have enough time to read everything, see everything, and listen to everything that people tell me to check out. To me, recommendations, like review websites and story synopsis, are a tool for me to investigate whether I should invest further time looking into something. So that's part of why I ask. The other part though, it's a huge part of why I post on Hubski in the first place. I like to see what discussions come out of the questions that are asked and the things that are shared. Look at this thread alone, where you've gone on to discuss the merits of both The Matrix as well as Star Wars in the world of sci-fi. Hell, look at my camera thread from just a bit back, where we talked about Edwin Land and his contributions to America during The Cold War. Conversations like that, to me, are much, much more important than me spending and afternoon in front of the television. Conversations like that lead to discovery and learning, the broadening of horizons, and most importantly, developing relationships with your peers based upon shared interests. I could easily google the top ten critically acclaimed anime cartoons of each decade and go from there. But I don't want to, because I can't converse with google. I can converse with you though and everyone else on Hubski and I think that's more important than anything.
It may interest you to know that I, too, find Nolan's Batman trilogy to be poorly-written. I also have minimal patience for most Altman films (MASH was filmed without a script, BTW) and I would dismiss the schlock horror/gore genre out-of-hand. Most people give up on Kubrick in the 3rd act, not the 2nd, but it's easy to argue that the most important parts of FMJ are finished with Pyle. I've never made it more than 20 minutes into Crouching Tiger but it's a rare Kurusawa I don't enjoy (couldn't quite make it through Ikiru, feel guilty about it, will try again some time). And you're right - they're just movie recommendations. But they're just movie recommendations. When you frontload it like this: You'd think I'd asked you to accept Ctulhu as your one true savior or tried to sell you some Amway products. More than that, you're acting as if I've thrown some horrendous curveball your way and I'e made you uncomfortable by doing so. But worst of all, you didn't ask me if I'd thrown some horrendous curveball your way - "lol these look kinda weird are you sure?" - you're acting as if I tried to sneak a Peter Greenaway film into your rotation because I've decided you need to be a cinema aesthete and you were too shocked to bring it up. So if you "like to see what discussions come out of the questions that are asked and the things that are shared", here's what comes out of them. When you double down on prudish horror at the suggestion of one series over another, rather than try to have a discussion about something you're unsure about, the discussion becomes about the discussion rather than the movie. 'cuz see, we could have a hell of a discussion about Madoka Magica. Instead we're sitting here acknowledging that we both probably liked Ran. LET'S BE PERFECTLY CLEAR: 90% of anime is pure shit. I'd say 50% of the anime that most americans love is pure shit. Dragonball? Shit. Pokemon? Shit. Fullmetal Alchemist? Well... I gave it about ten episodes and I was pretty goddamn unimpressed. Attack on Titan? Truly the fuckin' emo scenekids of kaiju anime. So when you ask for anime, my response is mostly going to be "here is a carefully-curated list of things I don't think are shit." Madoka, on the other hand, is a fucking physical anomaly. I'm not entirely sure how it got made. It's as if Tata somehow produced a GT40. You'd want a motorsports fan to know that. Hell, you'd want someone with a passing interest in cars to know that. And you'd be pretty fucking weirded out if they ran away screaming "Behind me satan!" So yay broadening horizons and boo shitting down the neck of people who are trying. Watch whatever the fuck you want to watch but do me a solid and try not to paint me up as the weirdo for answering the recommendations you specifically asked me for.Can I be honest? I'm gonna be honest here. I will fully admit that I intentionally glossed over those particular titles. All three of those cartoons seem really and uncomfortably weird to me and I didn't want to hurt your feelings or feel like I was snubbing your suggestions. It's like someone telling me that I need to see Eraserhead or A Clockwork Orange because they're classic cinema, but I've seen bits and pieces of both and know enough of both that I'd be extremely uncomfortable watching them and wouldn't appreciate them. I feel the same is true for those three titles from what I read about them on Wikipedia. I'm sorry. :/
Sturgeon's Law almost always applies.90% of anime is pure shit
You know, I think at this point this isn't a healthy conversation for us to have. We're not seeing eye to eye and all we're doing is making each other upset. We have a lot in common and a lot we enjoy sharing with each other and I don't want to jeopardize that over this thread. Let's call it a day, take a breather for a bit, so we can continue going about life as friends.
I just finished The Ghost in the Shell and I enjoyed it for the most part. It was a great little detective story with quite a few plot twists that kept the story engaging while not feeling overly dramatic and the action scenes were very well done. The animation itself was absolutely beautiful, with a great eye for detail both in the characters and props as well as the backgrounds. The city itself that the story takes place in felt very much alive and lived in, which I think is a great example to the attention to detail by the animators. While the overall plot is quite different, the discussions about humanity and life, especially towards the end, for some reason reminded me quite a bit of Blade Runner. That said, the ending felt kind of abrupt and open ended at the same time, leaving plenty of room to wonder about what happens to Kusanagi and 2501 as well as the overall themes of not only cyborgs, androids, humanity, and their relationships with technology and the abundance of readily available information. I know that there's a television series based off this movie, so I'm kind of curious as to whether or not it really dives into those concepts further. I might look into it.
Most of the questions asked in Ghost in the Shell are answered in Ghost in the Shell II: Innocence. And yes - Ghost in the Shell owes a whole lot to Blade Runner, Innocence even more so. You need to see this. It's an anthology, it's hard to find, but it's got some of the most sublime stuff anywhere. A lot of it is online, like this. I think it ran for about a year on Sci Fi Channel back in the late '80s, and is no longer licensed in the US, so torrent away.
Robot Carnival looks awesome. I'll have to hunt that down. I think it was War who mentioned how The Matrix took some style cues from Ghost in the Shell and if I remember correctly, I think some of the influence for Mecha Anime came from the concept of powered armor from Heinlein's Starship Troopers. It's really interesting to see in ways how Europe, The States, and Japan all seem to have a back and forth influence on each other when it comes to science fiction and fantasy in particular and cinema in general.
Mecha anime is all about kaiju, which is all about Hiroshima. Americans came up with robot suits but they never made them 8 stories tall because the physics doesn't work and we don't have a psychological need to revisit giant things beyond our control destroying our cities. My best friend did his masters' thesis on all the influences The Matrix stole from without paying proper attention to the concepts. The Matrix is the movie that caused cyberpunk to be stillborn as a genre, the same way Star Wars killed science fiction.
Can you really call Star Wars science fiction, though? It's really a Monomyth-inspired high fantasy, or at least aspires to be. I think if you call Star Wars science fiction, you have to call Lord of the Rings science fiction, too. Both have aliens, mysterious magical forces, play heavily on the concept of fate, etc. The only main difference, in my mind, is the aesthetic.
I didn't. I said it killed science fiction. I can tell you want to have this argument, but you won't have it with me.
Ok, I see. That's a really interesting statement. With the recently successful SciFi movies, what do you define as death of a genre? What specific effect do you feel Star Wars had on science fiction? And do you think the effect is permanent or temporary?
Right. So we'll start with the observation that I'm hardly alone in this opinion. David Brin wrote what is probably the most famous takedown of Star Wars and later expanded it into a 400-page anthology of critical essays. I'm not going to give you 400 pages (I'm not sure why anyone would), but Jayson Bailey over at Flavorwire provides a good overview: Because here's the thing: Science fiction is the genre of "what if." Fables, going back to Aesop, are "what if" stories. The Sci Fi Channel, back before it sucked, even used "what if?" as its tagline. What if a friendly alien came to Earth and was attacked by the Army? What if someone invented a serum that made morons geniuses... but only for a month? What if eugenics and mass media were used to dominate society? The useful thing about "what if" scenarios is you can use them as a funhouse mirror to reflect your culture back at itself, highlighting certain things and diminishing others. Science Fiction is useful as social inquiry. Science fiction is useful in exploring ideas. Science fiction is exploring new worlds and seeking out new civilizations, boldly going where no man has gone before. Jules Verne was out there for the time. HG Wells? Morlocks and Eloi were all about class discussion. The invisible Man is a riff on Faust. Even Jack London's Big Red One is an exploration of class. And this is what sci fi was doing... up until 1977. Ever seen Logan's Run? You should; it's pretty much the quintessential sci fi up to Star Wars. How 'bout The Man Who Fell to Earth? One is disco as fuck but poses the question "What if everyone were killed when they turned 30?" The other is brooding and dark and poses the question "what if an idealistic alien were exposed to our consumer society?" Logan's Run came out 11 months before Star Wars; Man who Fell to Earth was 14. But after Star Wars... Whelp, Close Encounters came out about five months after. It basically established the Spielbergian paradigm of "fuzzy special effects that love us." But there's no "what if?" to it. Alien and Black Hole managed to get out; they were shooting while Star Wars was in wide release. But after that, sci fi was "B movies" and "gigantic blockbusters by George Lucas." A lot of those b movies were ripoffs of gigantic blockbusters by George Lucas. There was no point in making something unless it was a cheap-ass movie or a summer blockbuster and there are only so many summer blockbusters. I've been in these meetings, with these producers, having these discussions, and ten years ago, the rule of thumb was that sci fi needed to be $2m or less or $100m or more. You'll notice that those two budgets basically eliminate anything of quality. Hollywood learned that you could take a samurai film and put lasers in it and sell it for a billion dollars, so that's all they did from that point forth. It might be worth it to you, at some point, to check out Harlan Ellison's I, Robot screenplay. It was a big budget adaptation of the book, by Asimov and Ellison, that died an ignoble death as soon as it became clear that science fiction was gonna be 100% a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. And all those "what if" questions were now going to be "who cares." We got our I, Robot eventually. But it was a spec script by Jeff Vintar called "Hardwired" that had the three laws of robotics welded onto it. Our tastes for "science fiction", you see, have been so shaped by Star Wars that nobody figured the actual I, Robot could make any money. After all, they made Patch Adams into a robot and it lost a shit-ton of money.But that’s the trouble with mainstream science fiction filmmaking these days: there’s no expectation that an audience is capable of putting things together or waiting for a payoff, and there certainly aren’t many filmmakers or executives willing to take the risk. The problem, it seems, is the desire of those who greenlight movies to lump science fiction in with action, and it’s easy to guess why: Star Wars. Before 1977, there were occasional crossovers, but for the most part, science fiction was a genre purely unto itself, concerned with alien invasions and post-apocalyptic scenarios and subtextual parallels. After Lucas mashed up spaceships and swashbucklers, sci-fi was never the same.
This is a compelling argument for how Star Wars damaged science fiction as a movie genre, but not for how Star Wars killed it. What about all the science fiction movies that have come out since then that are not B-movies or summer blockbusters? Children of Men, Her, Blade Runner, District 9, Moon, Contact, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, Minority Report, Super 8, The Iron Giant, etc. Some of those movies are really high quality, and they all ask "what if", in my opinion. So I agree that making a science fiction film is an uphill battle, but clearly there is still interest from both audiences and filmmakers.
You probably don't even realize how annoying you're being. I doubt you've internalized that you started this discussion by misquoting me, continued it by asking a broad and internet-wide question, and now sit here triumphant by arguing "you're wrong because semantics." Here's the reality - I made a flippant comment that you misunderstood. I corrected you and humored you. And now, after that tome above, you're here misunderstanding "b-movies" and "blockbusters." I have demonstrably more knowledge about this subject than you do. I have demonstrated my willingness to share it. But my patience with your conversational style is at an end. You list ten films. Eight of them were commercial failures. One of them was the most expensive movie the year it was made. Two of them bankrupted studios. And I could write a couple paragraphs about each, but I'm not going to, because you're making this unpleasant and insulting. Deliberately or not.
I didn't mean to be antagonistic. I'm interested in what you say because you seem knowledgeable on the subject. I acknowledge that I started the discussion by misquoting you, and I apologize for that. I genuinely misunderstood you. When I asked my broad question, the kind of long and interesting response you responded with is actually what I was hoping for, so thanks for the information. You're annoyed that I had a critical response to your long answer, probably stemming from my own ignorance. I don't really see what's wrong with that one. Maybe I'm coming across as less casual than I mean to, because I didn't mean to say anything I wouldn't have said in a casual conversation with someone in real life who was passionate about some subject. I probably should have stressed my own ignorance more in my response, because I meant my response as a question: "How can I reconcile your assertion with X?" Who knows, maybe you would find me annoying in real life. Anyway, I was not triumphant, and I was not trying to prove you wrong. I was curious. Clearly I'm misunderstanding what a B-movie and a blockbuster are, and I must have also misunderstood what constitutes a commercial failure in film. Looking at Wikipedia, several of the movies made a box office revenue of more than twice their budget (Her, District 9, Eternal Sunshine, Minority Report, Super 8), and three more were profitable. I naively assumed this would constitute a commercial success, but looking at profits of the IMDB top-rated movies, I see that most have grossed much higher than a multiple of 2. So that is definitely eye opening to me. I'd previously assumed that most of the movies I listed were a success, since they were popular and made money. I'm surrounded by nerds 99% of the time in my life, and among the ones who like movies, they've always considered movies like Children of Men and Blade Runner as if they were equally as successful as movies like The Dark Knight and Pulp Fiction. It makes me a bit sad that this turns out not to be true. How do you think the movie landscape would look different if Star Wars never existed (assuming we still kept all of its special effects and technical production advances)? More SciFi dramas like The Man From Earth? That would be nice...
Okay, I appreciate that. Thanks. So here's a fundamental fact about movies: "making money" does not mean making money. I recognize how insane that sounds but the perception of the opening weekend pretty much dominates Hollywood now. It does this, in no small part, because of the invention of the blockbuster, the first two examples of which are Star Wars and Jaws. Wanna see an amazing graphic? Check this sucka out. It's unfortunate that it only goes back to '86 and forward only to 2008, but it demonstrates the point better than anything else - sweep the timeline slowly from 1986 to 2008 and watch the peaks build. Summer blockbusters have a few things in common. Look at anything brown on that NYT graph and see if you can spot the trend. While not every film that made a gajillion dollars is chockablock with action and special effects, it's certainly the most prevalent common thread. And here's another problem with sci fi - it's probably going to have some special effects in it no matter what. Might as well be explosions. And it's clear you haven't really considered the expense of big movies. Star Wars was a $7m movie, the most expensive production of 1976. By way of contrast, Blade Runner was a $12m movie, the most expensive production of 1982... and it got dusted by ET. And what environment did it get dusted in? That was an era when you could see - Blade Runner - Wrath of Khan - The Road Warrior - Poltergeist - The Thing - and Conan All at the theater, all the same weekend. Empire had come out, Jedi was still on the horizon. It hadn't gotten truly dire yet. But compare and contrast: Lucas made bank with Star Wars, Empire and Jedi. Ridley Scott lost money on Blade Runner and more on Legend and then had to go hide in the Black Rain/Thelma & Louise price range as penance. He didn't make another sci fi until Prometheus. James Cameron made a mint on Terminator, another mint on Aliens, but when The Abyss tanked he had to fight tooth and claw for the money for Terminator II. And that's where we've been - Chris Nolan, hot off the heels of f'n Batman, had to underwrite most of Inception on his own dime. Nobody wanted to fund it 'cuz there weren't enough explosions. Star Wars created, then cemented the idea that successful science fiction movies are the ones with explosions, lasers, and jive-talkin' robots. You point to Super 8, JJ Abrams out slummin' because he wanted to work on something small while sucking down both Star Trek and Star Wars. That's like Spielberg making Schindler's List on the side while directing Jurassic Park. Certainly, there are outliers, and certainly there have been decent sci fi movies made in the past 30 years... but they have been oh so much harder to make because they've been cultivated in the shadow of a gigantic, bombastic space opera. I don't know how old you are, but there were a number of published sighs of relief after Revenge of the Sith that now, oh holy shit, we might actually be able to return to science fiction after more than 30 years. All of the films you list above - except one - happened between Revenge of the Sith and Force Awakens. How do I think things would be different? Up above I linked to the David Brin essay "Star Wars Despots. Vs. Star Trek Populists." I suggest you read it. The fact of the matter is, a culture of ideas was forced to defend itself against a culture of feudalist determinism. Prior to star wars, the "what if?" was about our society and culture. After star wars, the "what if" was about gods and monsters. Take Star Trek the Motion Picture. Recognize that it was directed by Robert Wise, with special effects by Douglas Trumbull and visual design by Syd Mead. Now imagine this hadn't happened to it: $46m. In 1979. On a TV pilot. Because " science fiction films other than Star Wars could do well at the box office". Now recognize that in this, our modern era, you can't have a Star Trek film without having Sulu fence someone on an antigravity frisbee as it re-enters the atmosphere. Compare and contrast: Rollerball (1975), about a sports conspiracy designed to keep the people placid and unaware: vs Rollerball (2002), about chase scenes. That's how I think it'd be different. I think it'd matter.When the original television series was cancelled in 1969, Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry lobbied Paramount to continue the franchise through a film. The success of the series in syndication convinced the studio to begin work on a feature film in 1975. A series of writers attempted to craft a suitably epic script, but the attempts did not satisfy Paramount, so the studio scrapped the project in 1977. Paramount instead planned on returning the franchise to its roots with a new television series, Star Trek: Phase II. The box office success of Close Encounters of the Third Kind convinced Paramount that science fiction films other than Star Wars could do well at the box office, so the studio cancelled production of Phase II and resumed its attempts at making a Star Trek film.
It is not. The problem with The Matrix is it took all the Gibson/Williams/Sterling tropes of cyberpunk - mirror shades, implants, "jacking into the net", etc - and shoved them into a garden-variety Campbellian heroe's-journey messiah arc. The Matrix is Dune is Harry Potter is Lord of the Rings is every "one true savior" bullshit monomyth story perpetrated by Hollywood since Ben fucking Hur. What got left out was the fundamental disenchantment with technology, the splintering of society, the class issues, the intrusion of technology on everyday life, the alienation fostered by corporate dominance, all the actual social issues at the heart of Cyberpunk. Bruce Sterling observed that Neuromancer was the most important sci fi book in 25 years because it was the first exploration of a future that hadn't either been entirely wiped clean by nuclear war or advanced so far ahead that modern underpinnings didn't matter. Cyberpunk explored the mental space occupied by a perpetual cold war, by corporate dominance of daily life, by our gradual alienation from each other due to technology. But a movie like New Rose Hotel doesn't stand a chance in a bullet-time universe inhabited by The One. FWIW, we had this discussion with Vince Gerardis and he didn't disagree. He also didn't buy anything we were selling. ;-)
I don't think disenchantment is the right word. It wouldn't have been very interesting if it had been just been "technology is scary, also get of my lawn." It was more ambivalence. Technology as a mechanism for corporate dominance and alienation on the one hand, technology is a mechanism for liberation on the other. I mean, Neuromancer had space Rastafarians.What got left out was the fundamental disenchantment with technology
Thanks for posting this. I like cartoons, and I'm always looking for new stuff. I like that the stuff you saw was free on Hulu. I've been staying away from Hulu because of all the commercials. I looked at a few of the shows you reviewed and remembered why I stayed away from Hulu before. Those commercials are hard to get around. Some of those shows looked great, so maybe I'll get over it. Thanks for the detailed reviews. I enjoyed them.