Potential U.S. Army enlistee here. What's the value in gaining strength, discipline, character and all the other shit they'll "offer" to prospective servicemen and women, if you can't even make it out in one piece to face the world in the first place. Speechless, kinda angry, curious what Hubski has to say about this. Thanks for the share.“I saw a lot of friends die. It’s hard. I don’t like to remember things, ’cause you see too many things happen. That’s why they call it, what, post-trauma stress?
"You wake up, you’re screaming, you’re fighting. You try to get help, and that doesn’t solve the problem, but it always comes back. So I always say, you gotta deal with it.”
Pabs, don't do it. I've given this advice before, I'll give it again forever. I've had 5 friends go into the military, only 1 of them came out okay. Not better, but okay. The rest in no particular order: 1) Extreme PTSD, still lives with his parents and acts like he's 17. He's 31 now. 2) Came home from the early Iraq days to be with his GF and his child after having an IED blow up 20 feet away from him, embedding shrapnel in his forehead and killing one of his buddies. Finally kicked heroin a few years ago. 3) Went in a kind young man, goofy as all get-out. Came back an unabashed racist and sexist asshole, constantly aggressive, and condemning me for being a "liberal pussy faggot" 4) On-again-off-again homeless, self-aware alcoholic with a penchant for the occasional meth binder There is nothing waiting for you in the military, in a war zone or when you come home. There is no positive benefit that is worth it. You will be disciplined into being fodder. Your companionship and camaraderie with your fellow soldiers stems from your shared suffering. Those in charge will make you into a sheep on the altar and have no problem slitting your throat. No, no no, a thousand times no. Those are just taglines. You are a lovely young man, you have plenty of character. Discipline? It's pretty self-explanatory, it's all about practice. Strength? For what? How to deal with a friend lying bloody next to you? How to avoid constant threat of sexual assault? How to be a fantastic team player? What are you expecting to get out of military service? If you must, at least figure out a way to stay far away from combat. That's the advice I gather from the one guy who made it out okay. gaining strength, discipline, character
?
From your perspective–a rational one– you're absolutely right. So I can't refute what you're saying, and by all means I am not dismissing it. I'm aware of the very likely and very serious state I could be left in when it's all over. That's part of what is keeping me on the fence at the moment. So thank you, but there's a second part to it all where I feel, just like white said, those who have gone through it all do not regret it. It shapes them for who they are and that can be really, really valuable. It's a strong fuckin' mold, man. But I understand and appreciate your words, thank you, I'm absolutely considering all of it.
But on a side note: What's wrong with that? I have yet to see a stronger bonding agent. Don't just think suffering, but survival as well; victory.Your companionship and camaraderie with your fellow soldiers stems from your shared suffering.
Pabst, I have an ex-boyfriend who served as a Marine in Afghanistan. He loved it. He got injured and was honorably discharged and that made him sad. He also doesn't sleep more than 3-4 hours/night due to screaming nightmares the last time I checked. Not to mention, of course, the physical health sacrifices that he made. Not to mention, of course, that once a war is over everyone who's "really good at war" has nothing to do. Nothing they are good at that applies into the world of peace. __ Got another ex, he's the one I've mentioned around here who thinks that the problem with women is that society doesn't judge them harshly enough for getting minimum wage jobs. He's the one who told me that if equality between men and women were achieved, we would see a rise in sociopaths because men have to have sex or else they'll go insane. (And apparently if men and women were equal, that means men and women would have less sex. Like, don't even ask me where he gets this from.) This guy told me that 80-90% of the women in the military that he saw coasted, cried, and did whatever they could to get out of everything they were doing. I asked him to really think about that and think of concrete women that did this, and then the other women who actually lived up and made it, and if it really was that divided. He came back to me and said no, it wasn't. I pointed out that we don't notice when people are doing their jobs, we notice when people aren't doing these jobs. This guy has PTSD. This guy may have been nutso before he went into the army - but that's something to think about too. Who are your fellow soliders going to be, pabst? Do you think that you are going to be surrounded by educated, erudite, philosophical soldiers? Do you not think that a job whose responsibilities include potentially killing people might not attract people who may be interested in killing people? You're going to be surrounded by fighters. People who don't consider themselves fighters, and then others who do: people who do MMA, BJJ, who like physical combat. Have you ever been in a fight Pabst? __ That guy? The second one? He knows he has PTSD. When I started seeing him he was smoking an astronomical amount of pot every day. I'm not talking bowls or bongs or joints or blunts I'm talking hash oil and dabs and enough weed to knock me on the back for hours. He doesn't drink anymore because when he drank, it turned into problems. Fights at bars. He can't hold down a relationship for anything. He still texts me telling me things that he thinks I want to hear - like that he's cleaned his room or that he decided, he doesn't want kids - because he wants to be in a relationship so much he's willing to sacrifice what I would consider to be kind of basic parts about himself (the kids thing, anyway). He tells me he likes me because I'm not like other women, because I never say "I can't do that, I'm a girl," etc. He is seriously probably the most sexist person I've consciously ever known. ________ So take a second, honey, and think about who those fellow soldiers are likely to be. I do not think they are likely to be private school educated New York city boys who get into bars by wearing suits at 5pm weekdays.companionship and camaraderie with your fellow soldiers
They're gonna be interesting people you may have never normally associated with. They're going to teach you about life as they see it in lenses molded by very diverse backgrounds, far different than those you'll find in an NYC private school. _refugee_ I feel as though your post paints these guys as those people, those guys you really don't want to and shouldn't associate with. I want to armchair psychoanalyze the contrast between your ex's and subtle warnings about who pablo might be serving with, but I won't. I'll just leave the previous sentence there and be more passive aggressive about it.I do not think they are likely to be private school educated New York city boys who get into bars by wearing suits at 5pm weekdays.
I think Pablo going into the military is the dumbest Into the Wild bullshit I've heard from him. But that's neither here nor there with your quote, I just want him to know. That being said, your quote: I don't think he needs to join the military to get that experience. I think you can get diverse backgounds in lots of places that don't require basic training. Its not like those backgrounds matter when you enter the military anyway - they homogenize you when you get there, your past doesn't matter at all. Act like a single unit, etc. Etc. There are people who are cut out for the military. There are people who are not. I do not think you're cut out for the military, Pablo. Take that as an insult, or don't, its still what I think. I think your skills and personalities could be used elsewhere and better. I think your ideals don't match the actual occurances within the military. Its your choice, of course. I don't think its the right one if you do it. TFW phone typos everywhere.They're gonna be interesting people you may have never normally associated with. They're going to teach you about life as they see it in lenses molded by very diverse backgrounds, far different than those you'll find in an NYC private school.
e: This came off a little more patronizing than I intended, so apologies Right on. I got really upset when I read his response yesterday and I like Pablo, so I didn't want to come off as forwardly aggressive about my particular opinion, seeing as, if given to me at some vital junction in my life, my response would have been: "screw you". And it's just not productive. I don't want to make projections about personality types of those in the military, those who would join, their motivations, sincerity and intelligence behind those decisions, as they are not necessary when white hits me with something as heartbreaking as: and nowaypablo, you tell me what pretty much comes across as "I want to invite prospective trauma onto my own person that others have finally been able to vocal about their struggle after decades of stupid wars that have chewed up the young people of this country in some sordid version of nonsense 'adventure seeking'- 19th century mindset that has been thoroughly shitted all over for the past 50 years as a stupid, stupid justification for the tacit participation in the prolonged and unnecessary trauma of subjugated peoples just so I can wear an american flag toga and pose for the statue my children will carve of me with teary eyes while I dictate my letters for my autobiography" That gets my goat. Things you can do instead: -Become a war journalist -Do an ultramarathon across the Sahara -Start a business -Join a band and go on tour -Move to another country without any friends or resources and struggle til you make it -do extended camping in remote areas while hunting/gathering your own food -ride your bike across America Last word on this whole thing, I promise. I still like you, pabs, and that's part of the reason I don't think you should join.
edit:
On this: Remember, when white said that, he didn't exactly say whether or not that was the opinion of his friends who had commited suicide.I think Pablo going into the military is the dumbest Into the Wild bullshit I've heard from him.
I may have nightmares about my friend trapped and burning alive in an MRAP hit by an EFP.
those who have gone through it all do not regret it.
I said what I said with all the disclaimers pointing to the fact that I know what I'm saying isn't smart. It's part of the reason I said it, because I am absolutely, completely, wholeheartedly enwrapped and enraptured by this desire. I know I can do all those other things. But I want to challenge myself and risk (not invite) "prospective trauma." I only want to serve my 5 years active duty, post-West Point, and walk off with my ~$300k+ in commission savings, absolute fucking zero in college loans, and up to fucking $160k of my fucking graduate education fucking paid for in thieving collegiate America, for fucks sake. Good–but keep in mind not necessarily accurate, and arguably very narrow-minded– point. I think I have the set of skills– furthermore I inherently and vigorously desire the skills I don't have–that make up a graduate of West Point or any officer or service-member otherwise. Further-further more, I inherently and vigorously desire a very specific personality and set of traits that I have only seen so completely and so clearly in people, like white, for whom I've expressed my respect before, who have partook in some way or another in a war.. or experienced it as a civilian. I've met many of both categories, and many across the whole spectrum of damages taken from their experiences–including, if you really need to go there–suicide. I haven't seen these enough of these skills and/or traits that I respect and desire in any bike rider, band member, or businessman to earn such strong respect and staunch admiration. I've at least met 30 "successful" rock musicians, countless successful classical musicians, and talk on the daily with businessmen who have succeeded in New York City and around the world in ways that would blow your fucking mind.
Thank you for calling me out, I honestly seriously appreciate it, like really. I mean it. I'm considering what you're saying seriously, butbutbutbutbut I still need to make my point because there's something more I feel than just "believing" in it. I have not made a decision yet.Remember, when white said that, he didn't exactly say whether or not that was the opinion of his friends who had commited suicide.
I agree that my examples aren't representative of everyone who serves. But I do think that the people who serve are probably not the kind of people pabs is used to spending time with, and that he would experience some culture shock. I also do believe that a profession which is about fighting is going to attract people who enjoy fighting. If we consider that I have dated some of these people, and recently, clearly we can infer that I am not saying they are people one shouldn't associate with - as I associate with "such types" myself relatively regularly.
Easier to infer that one shouldn't associate with them when you say stuff like between a list of other negatives. But point taken. Y'know, this probably encourages him more, considering his other posts in this thread.clearly we can infer that I am not saying they are people one shouldn't associate with
He is seriously probably the most sexist person I've consciously ever known.
But I do think that the people who serve are probably not the kind of people pabs is used to spending time with, and that he would experience some culture shock.
to the latter statement - It very well might. to the first statement - I at no point was attempting to say that two people I know are indicative of everyone who serves in the military. I even, when describing this same person, stated that he was probably crazy before he went into the military. My point was more to describe the impact that serving on active duty has had in their lives. I'm allowed to be honest in my description of the people who I know who have served in the military. At no point did I even come close to implying that the military had made this man sexist. This specific person? Yes, he shouldn't be associated with, and I choose not to associate with him. But you're hyperfocusing on half of my provided example. It's true. I know a bad man who was in the military. You know what? I bet he's not the only bad man who was in it, either. Doesn't in any way or at any time in my comment mean that I am saying they are all bad guys. But Pabst should be fucking prepared for the bad ones. I mean, I could get into the stories I've heard of soldiers burning dogs alive in Afghanistan, from people who have been there, but that's certainly not indicative of the entire military population either.
OK– Ultimate and utmost respect to you, I just need to make myself clear here so I tagged you in my comment to iamyownrushmore. Consider that (edit: sigh, now this too, I guess) my last statement in terms of argument about the subject. Furthering the disclaimer of my sincere, utmost respect for you. Seriously. I'm just gonna up and tell you that you've misunderstood me a lot, in terms of who I am. It may partially be from the fact that I talk about the best parts of myself on Hubski, and that when we met my mom was with me over-dressed in nice clothes, I was over-dressed in nice clothes, and again that my mom drove me to a rock concert offering an image quite like that of the whitest kid on the fucking face of the Earth edit: Universe. Also my Facebook profile is that of the world's most emasculated toddler. I'm not taking what you said to offense, or taking it personally in a negative way, I'm just clarifying. ftr. Have you ever been in a fight Pabst? Facts: No particular order. 1) I go to a public school. It's high-ranking cause it's the Ellis Island of Korea, and all the white kids pay $3,000 at a time for 3-week tutoring classes– I'm serious. I did not win the former genetic lottery, and did not win the cash lottery either. 2) Yeah, I've fucking been in fights before. Trust me. Alone, and in groups. Enough to learn the difference between when it is right to be in a fight, and when it is right to compromise or flee. I've been a varsity wrestler for 3 years and I run Spartan Races, if either of those are credible points to attest that I can deal with physical challenges. Either way, I think my motivation, will, and ability to learn to train for any physical challenge should be enough to cover that. 4) I know that at West Point I'm going to be surrounded by the most mentally tough young adults in the United States, as well as the most disciplined. I know that I'm going to be surrounded by some of the most physically enduring young adults on Earth. They will also be among the most intelligent young adults subject to of one of the most rigorous academic curricula in the country. As a second lieutenant in the U.S. Army, I'm going to be tasked with the immense responsibility of directing a large group (16-44 men and women) that may risk their lives at any point throughout my supervision of them. Sidenote: I have to double-check that white was in the army but if so, he could attest that this is even belittled by calling 2nd LT's "butterbars;" they're merely entry-level commissioned officers. From what I know, West Point sufficiently and outstandingly trains cadets, granted they are personally cable, for that responsibility. Those who aren't often wash out, often in the first 6 weeks. 5) Yes. I believe that there are going to be sick people in the Academy and in the Army. I believe that there are going to be sick people in the cubicle across from me at work, in the car in front of me in traffic, in the seat next to me on the plane, and in the desk behind me every day in every class at school. My upper-class NYC suburban environment doesn't protect me from any of that, neither do the forests Bumblefuck, upstate New York. I bet you'd be surprised to find out which area has more guns. 6) I'm sorry about both of your ex's, and much more so for the affect they had on you, because I know you more personally. I do not know the extent of the pain felt by a victim of PTSD, or the pain from the immediate perspective of those closest to one who is suffering from it. It's one of the main points I'm considering in dismissing my interest in the Academy.Who are your fellow soliders going to be, pabst? Do you think that you are going to be surrounded by educated, erudite, philosophical soldiers? Do you not think that a job whose responsibilities include potentially killing people might not attract people who may be interested in killing people? You're going to be surrounded by fighters. People who don't consider themselves fighters, and then others who do: people who do MMA, BJJ, who like physical combat.
I've met soldiers on both sides of the "after war" thing. My cousin Matt was a Staff Sergeant in the Marines and, from what little I know, was involved with Artillery in Afghanistan. When he got out, he'd married his girlfriend (who's a little weird, but a good person), and has two kids. He worked as a recruiter for a while (sidepoint: military recruiters in high schools piss me off), and now he's looking for something else. Matt is a great guy. He's down to earth, he's kind, good humored. He's not an asshole. I'm sure he's seen some shit, and I'm sure most of his problems stay tucked up in his head, but he's got a family and friends he loves and they love him, and he's stable. He's pretty much what I hope the result is for my friend. Safe, stable, alive. I worked with a guy who was a medic in the Army. Older than Matt, and he had seen some shit. He was a rough guy. Biker, classic rock, and heavy metal. Drank and smoked, the kind of guy who, when his kids got picked on told them, "stand up for yourself and punch that shit in the face." He was a good guy too, but had problems with alcohol. DWIs, mostly. Always got the impression that he was into some drugs as well, but I rather doubt it was anything "hard." I've got a lot of experience in seeing people who're slave to the syringe, and he never had any of those signs. He's rough, but fuck does he love his kids. I wouldn't want to step between him and them. The darker ones I met at Alcoholic Anonymous meetings. My dad used to take me to them when I was living with him in East St. Louis. I, being 12 or 13 years old, couldn't go into the actual meetings, but I'd sit in the little kitchenette area outside. The guy who was there (I guess he either worked the kitchen, or just stayed out there to keep me company) was a black guy in probably his 60's. I don't remember a whole lot about him, but I do remember him saying he'd served and ended up surgically attached to the bottle for a while afterwards.
For the record, officers are commissioned, they don't enlist. :) The easy answer is none. You have a 50/50 chance of being fucked for a long time. If you see combat. The friends I have that didn't kill themselves and have gotten over their substance abuse issues (nearly all of us abused drugs and alcohol for at least a year or two afterward) do feel more able to face the world. More important than strength discipline and character has been our adaptability and perspective. I may have nightmares about my friend trapped and burning alive in an MRAP hit by an EFP. But at least I know I'll never complain about a facebook friend not liking my status. Everything from here on out is going to be cake, and it's going to be fun because it's a zero-sum game compared to a deployment. This attitude pisses a lot of people off, though. People will measure and compare their life's tragedies to it because this belittles their struggles. Yeah, I know suffering, pain, tragedy are relative. Context, please. "but you signed up for it!" -fuck you But like iammyownrushmore's experience, less than half of the people I know have "gotten over it" so far. It's a different story for non-combat jobs. That said, nobody I know regrets it, and we all feel it had a positive impact on our lives. Wouldn't be hard to make an objective argument against that, though. Sorry for the shitpost.
I absolutely should add that I in no way speak for any people who have served, or their perspective, so that is totally valuable, and I would never rob anyone who has been through trauma as you or those you know have experienced of your voice to express that experience. I spoke from my perspective, but yours is the more important one, so if anything I said or projected is not your experience, and isn't accurate/helpful feel free to put me in my place. Not a shitpost at all, I should hope my friends never have to deal with regret on top of everything else, and I am sincerely glad you don't either, buddy.
No worries man. I understand and appreciate this post, although I don't think it's necessary. I know the average hubskier isn't the type to take the kind of posture you describe. Someone considering military service should absolutely begin with your perspective. I think much like an alcoholic talking about alcohol, a veteran isn't always the best person to ask about how the military affected them.
This is part of what I seek to gain from the army. A real fucking experience, let it shake me a little bit and give me perspective on what I should and shouldn't be whining about. I'm aware that what I'm saying may sound stupid but that's just the truth for me, it's what i want to do. Anyway I think we can be honest with ourselves and admit that it takes a few parts foolishness along with everything else to join the army. I know West Point graduates are commissioned officers, i just didn't want to complicate my comment here. From whom I've spoken to at the USMA, it seems like getting into something like comms and even artillery corps is a popular direction for cadets who want to avoid directly coming under fire or being in a Humvee. But I'm going to be even stupider again and say that if I'm going to join i'm going to join and, granted all my ignorance and lack of grasp on the magnitude of what that decisions means etc. etc., I want to be close to the action.
I guess I'll make this a reply to iammyownrushmore as well, I just don't want to be sterile for the rest of my life and die with baby fat so to speak. I want to get dirty and get my ass kicked and know that I passed the most difficult challenges I could impose on myself. I want to be the sort of role model for my kids wherein they can look up at me and see fortitude and stoicism. It seems like this'd be the way to go for that. Even if I come out broken, that's my price to pay.I may have nightmares about my friend trapped and burning alive in an MRAP hit by an EFP. But at least I know I'll never complain about a facebook friend not liking my status. Everything from here on out is going to be cake, and it's going to be fun because it's a zero-sum game compared to a deployment. This attitude pisses a lot of people off, though. People will measure and compare their life's tragedies to it because this belittles their struggles. Yeah, I know suffering, pain, tragedy are relative. Context, please. "but you signed up for it!" -fuck you
...you know that you can do this just by, you know, trying to be a good person on a daily basis? Tell you what. You try and be like thenewgreen and you'll come out just as good, if not better, than if you were to subject yourself to hell.I want to be the sort of role model for my kids wherein they can look up at me and see fortitude and stoicism.
Thank you for the kind words. There are no shortages of good dads on Hubski and I'm not sure any of them have seen active duty. -not trying to dissuade nowaypablo, but just sayin. As far as gaining perspective that will ground you and put things in proper perspective, there are any number of ways to do this that aren't military. Go volunteer for hospice. Done.
A) ButterflyEffect is right, you are definitely a role model for a great dad, take it from me for reasons I may have to write a book about at some point. B) You're right, but there is the foolish element of desire that makes my eyes widen at Fort Bragg but gag a little at the ER. It's what I'm going to defend somehow as I go about responding to the flurry of comments now. B2) I'm doing EMT training this summer anyway! :)
I almost went that route too. I don't know you and I don't know what you really want. All I'll say is there are a lot of options to earn scars in life and while I've never met a soldier I didn't like I also wonder about all the soldiers I'll never meet. Whatever you decide you're in my thoughts.
There are other things out there that can shake you up. I used to be a janitor at a condo complex and that really shook me up and made me appreciate life more. The grind of cleaning crap over and over again, not getting a raise no matter how hard you tried and the constant looks from people looking down upon you can really get to one and make you want to work really hard at your next job. It seemed like I would never get out but I did and I have been working at a medical billing office now for about a year and a half. I know being a janitor is not the same as being in the military but there are other things out there that can really give you perspective.
I like that you're covering your bases here white :D
If you're saying that because a) i'll lose my nuts b) i'll lose my life: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean.