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comment by ilex
ilex  ·  1570 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The case against American truck bloat

As someone who owns an F-150 of the same era with the same 300 c.i. inline six engine, I can attest to how terrifyingly deadly it is to deer and presumably pedestrians as well. It's already big and I struggle to imagine what it's like to drive something even bigger on a regular basis for typical consumer car tasks. Honestly I would love a tiny Hilux but they command ridiculous money in this area because they're popular for rock crawler/off-road builds.

Some auto company should follow Subaru's footsteps and make a small truck marketed at dykes. Ted Cruz might want a mean, threatening, monstrous truck, but lesbians know you don't need a big truck to be good in the bedroom :)





ThurberMingus  ·  1569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Sorry for continuing the metaphor but how much good is a giant truck if it's only half hard except for a couple times a year pulling a boat to a lake. I guess you can still show it off in the locker room.

uhsguy  ·  1569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Cars are bought for 1-5% use cases. How often do you need 4x4? How often do you need to tow? How often do you need to haul gravel? Maybe 10-20 times a year total per year for all 3. But you can’t really practically get those features the few times you need them so you end up driving with them idle 95% of the time.

The cost premium between truck and not isn’t awfully high, when you factor in depreciation into cost of ownership the truck might come out cheaper. Then there is economics and safety at play as well.

At the end of the day the truck is the American system summed up in an object. You buy it because it’s optimized for your personal outcome over that of the collective whole and it’s so damn expensive poor people need not apply.

ThurberMingus  ·  1569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    But you can’t really practically get those features the few times you need them

Off road 4x4 is the only thing you can't rent easily, because rentals have no-off-road conditions. The others are easy to solve.

Work trucks are work trucks, if it's earning you money get the one that's right for the job.

But for personal vehicles the times a light pickup isn't just as good for less than a heavy duty are damn few.

The times you aren't better off with a minivan and occasionally renting a small trailer for it are also pretty slim, tho maybe you need to spring for illegally dark tint to make sure nobody see it's you driving the minivan.

uhsguy  ·  1569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The minivan isn’t much different from a truck. Similar or worse mpg size is about the same size but maybe not specifically designed to kill pedestrians. Depreciation is much higher and then there is the daily shame of driving one.

I almost bought a Tacoma a few years back but I hated the visibility and the Taxes and hidden fees added up to almost 20% of the truck cost. Toyota has like a 2k fee for advertising f-that.

steve  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    and then there is the daily shame of driving one

This is the start and finish of the problem. We have a toxic car culture in the USA (but don’t worry, it matches and is intertwined with so many of our other toxic cultures). We are collectively stupid. We buy what the marketers tell us. We are what we drive. We are what we buy. You want to be the sexy professional working mom? Of course you drive the limo black Audi/Volvo/Acura mid sized SUV. You want to be the Alpha-male? You have two choices, but if you really are alpha - you have both: A HUGE truck for all of the coal rolling, 4x4 mountain expedition, boat hauling, camper trailer hauling, mountain Bike carrying, kayak keeping adventures you’re going on in your independently wealthy time.... and your sports car - or at least your sports car inspired full size SUV.

Detroit has fucked our country up six ways from Sunday, and we lap it up like little pieces of shit. Too few people buy vehicles for utilitarian purposes. (Any and every contractor who earns money with a truck or farmer who hauls hay is exempt from my venom). We buy trucks and SUVs because we can. We buy them because we “can’t see over the other cars”. We buy them because “they’re safe”. Yah - safe for the occupants. We now have streets and highways filled with light duty tanks that kill peds and cyclists, tear up our roads faster, damage the environment quicker... because fuckin’ Murica.

You bet your ass I drive a minivan. You know why? I need 7 seat belts for my family. And for 7 seat people, I have three choices (apart from brand): minivan, HUGE ASS SUV, or drive two cars. So I proudly own a minivan. Yep - it gets crappy mileage (compared to my leaf, corolla, or miata) but guess what? It’s almost double that of the SUV that could seat belt my kids. So fuck every person who is too cool to drive one. Fuck every person who thinks it’s “not cool” to drive one. Fuck every person who continues the trope that our cars somehow reflect us as people. Sure - KB drives a Porsche. I don’t know him that well, but when you listen, he’s not saying he owns a Porsche to flex and project status. Dude owns a Porsche cuz he DRIVES a motherfuckin Porsche. It doesn’t sit in his garage getting rubbed by a diaper. He straps a car seat in there and takes his kid to school (booster now I know - but you get the point).

Buy the car you need. Not the one you want. Better yet - don’t buy a car at all. Ride your bike. Minivans aren’t cool? Whatever. I don’t buy a car to be cool. I buy a car that makes the most sense. Fuck Truck Nation. Fuck buying SUVs the minute you have a kid. Fuck Detroit and the shit they’re peddling.

b_b  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Steve, buddy, there's so much factually inaccurate about this rant that I don't know where to being, saying nothing of the "It's ok for me because I need it and ok for specific-person-who-is-my-buddy because I trust him, but fuck everyone else" argument. My gut tells me just to shake my head quietly and let you have your mad moment, because obviously you have some pent up anger about this topic. But I think there are a lot of unfair assessments there.

steve  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oh dude... no doubt I was laying down some pent up frustration with my thumbs on an early morning rant from my phone. As to it being factually inaccurate - maybe? I mean - I don't think I spewed too many facts - just a lot of frustration and emotional whining. But now that the emotion is out of the way, I will stand by the underlying premise, which is to say "In Steve's humble (and not so emotional anymore) opinion, Americans tend to buy cars for the wrong reasons, and automakers are more than happy to supply it."

(though I am curious what I said that is factually inaccurate - genuinely.... Ima go back and read it again)

edit: I did claim that my minivan gets double the mileage of an SUV with as many seat belts. That is incorrect:

Toyota Sienna - 19/26

Suburban - 15/22

Land Cruiser - 13/17

Expedition - 17/23

I was dead wrong and will admit it. My minivan doesn't get twice the mileage of the others, only about 25% better in mpg.

b_b  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The first thing is that there's something different about cars and crossover SUVs. Car companies these days use a platform manufacturing systems, which means that single chassis can be used on multiple models. This makes it easier to retool plants to make multiple models, as well as making sourcing and designing simpler. So the majority of small and midsize SUVs are just cars that have a taller profile. So the person driving an Escape or an Equinox isn't doing anything different than in the past---just driving a car that has a lot better situational utility.

The second factual error that I see is that "Detroit" has fucked up anything. The three companies you name are Euro/Japanese brands that are responding to the same incentives the Big 3 are, namely that people want vehicles with space for passengers and cargo. That they can do this is more a reflection of gas prices than of marketing. Of course the companies want to sell as many SUVs as they can, because they have the highest margins by far. The Grand Cherokee and Ferrari were the sole reasons that FiatChrysler was not going bankrupt recently, the Grand Cherokee alone accounting for over $2 billion in profit.

The third thing that I think is inaccurate is that anyone, anytime buys anything purely out of utilitarian need. If we're going that far, then we might as well be wearing government shoes and outlawing jeans in favor of government-issued burlap sacks. We all make choices based on a combination of need, want, and price. How each of us makes that choice is mostly personal, and as soon as someone starts telling me I can't drive a truck (which I don't, but I have in the past) because I don't "need" one, I'm going to be screaming that no one needs a steak or ice cream or a single family home or almost anything that makes life more enjoyable for reasons other than pure utility. We're all living in glass houses.

The fourth thing, which is nit picky but no less true, is that mileage per se doesn't really mean a thing. What if I drive my Suburban 100 mi per week and you drive your Corolla 500 mi per week? It's unfair to make willy nilly assumptions about what other people do and why, because each of us may have a good reason we need that truck, even if collectively, it's evident that there might be too many of them on the road, and we therefore think that you don't need one. If we collectively decide we want fewer large vehicles on the road, then we need different tax policies, because the market has evidently spoken about what consumers want in a vehicle. Raise the gas tax (or put a surcharge on weight, since electric SUVs are coming soon--and anyway even a Tesla S weighs like 4,500 lbs or something) if you want fewer of those vehicles. But then you might end up with a Euro situation where everyone drives a diesel, which I don't think we want here, either.

The fifth thing is that the linked article is very suspect in its conclusion that trucks and SUVs actually kill pedestrians at a higher rate than cars. The data they present don't actually seem to support that, and I can 100% guarantee you that the people who design them care a whole lot about safety. This disingenuous bullshit about car companies designing cars they know are going to kill you is just dumb liberal anti-corporate bullshit that has no bearing on reality.

steve  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I fully accept all of these corrections and will only add comments for conversation - not trying to pick a fight.

    Car companies these days use a platform manufacturing systems

    the majority of small and midsize SUVs are just cars that have a taller profile

Touche, though I might argue that the taller profile does decrease fuel economy, but marginally.

    "Detroit" has fucked up anything. The three companies you name are Euro/Japanese brands

I know... I don't live there anymore, and arguably - never did live in the D itself, so I should probably STFU. My beefs with the big 3 are larger than this, but relevant to my rant is the marketing spin on cars being a reflection of you... but hey - I'm talking straight out of my ass because I'd be the first dude to slow my walk in a parking lot if I saw a vintage Hemi Cuda. I'm schizo about cars... I'll admit it.

    the companies want to sell as many SUVs as they can, because they have the highest margins by far.

but why? I don't get it. They can charge more... because.... they can charge more? I genuinely don't understand why SUVs are more profitable.

    we might as well be wearing government shoes and outlawing jeans in favor of government-issued burlap sacks.

Fair point. I know that freedom is choice is paramount... I think I'm just bugged that people make (what I think) are really dumb vehicular choices... again - fueled by the direct and indirect marketing around what cars/trucks/minivans "mean". I think we're collectively addicted... and the car companies are willing to keep slinging the smack. Our legislation around vehicles is SO MESSED UP that I can't even begin. Shoot... I should be glad for SUVs and trucks I guess. For a while, car companies had to make cars to balance out their fleet.

    If we collectively decide we want fewer large vehicles on the road, then we need different tax policies

yah... but it's really just me screaming into the void.

    But then you might end up with a Euro situation where everyone drives a diesel, which I don't think we want here, either.

Excellent point.

And to your fifth point - guilty confession - haven't even read the article yet. Just walking the comments and was reminded how much I hate Truck Nation before I was chemically balanced enough to make a rational, educated comment.

I think we'll still disagree on some things, and that's totally ok.

uhsguy  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Honestly Steve, I’ve secretly wanted a van/minivan since my early 20. It’s basically a truck with a built in hard top. You can store all your gear dry in one, tow a medium boat and put down a bed to sleep in and fit a full sheet of plywood in. Just that when I was single I thought women would judge me, and now that I’m married I know my wife doesn’t want to own one so probably not happening.

ThurberMingus  ·  1569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Pretty sure a typical minivan gets better milage that a typical truck. I'll take your word on depreciation.

Most of the minivans I've driven have had better visibility than similar sized trucks though.

uhsguy  ·  1569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

For reference the ram1500 gets 22/32 the Pacifica is 19/28 minivan is actually worse.

ThurberMingus  ·  1569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Huh, the best truck is better than the best minivan. But that's not typical

From page 10 of the 2020 doc here

b_b  ·  1569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    ...and it’s so damn expensive poor people need not apply.

Actually one of the reasons they're so popular is that they lease better than almost any other option a lot of the time (because of high residuals). Right place, right time, you can get a full size truck from any of the Big 3 for like $200/mo.

uhsguy  ·  1569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I guess they move easily so when underwater and repossessed the margin is good. Still these trucks start at 50k and go up from there. That high baseline price is actually an advantage because it allows underwater buyers to roll over their old underwater truck into a new one while keeping under 120% loan to value.