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comment by b_b
b_b  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The case against American truck bloat

Steve, buddy, there's so much factually inaccurate about this rant that I don't know where to being, saying nothing of the "It's ok for me because I need it and ok for specific-person-who-is-my-buddy because I trust him, but fuck everyone else" argument. My gut tells me just to shake my head quietly and let you have your mad moment, because obviously you have some pent up anger about this topic. But I think there are a lot of unfair assessments there.





steve  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oh dude... no doubt I was laying down some pent up frustration with my thumbs on an early morning rant from my phone. As to it being factually inaccurate - maybe? I mean - I don't think I spewed too many facts - just a lot of frustration and emotional whining. But now that the emotion is out of the way, I will stand by the underlying premise, which is to say "In Steve's humble (and not so emotional anymore) opinion, Americans tend to buy cars for the wrong reasons, and automakers are more than happy to supply it."

(though I am curious what I said that is factually inaccurate - genuinely.... Ima go back and read it again)

edit: I did claim that my minivan gets double the mileage of an SUV with as many seat belts. That is incorrect:

Toyota Sienna - 19/26

Suburban - 15/22

Land Cruiser - 13/17

Expedition - 17/23

I was dead wrong and will admit it. My minivan doesn't get twice the mileage of the others, only about 25% better in mpg.

b_b  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The first thing is that there's something different about cars and crossover SUVs. Car companies these days use a platform manufacturing systems, which means that single chassis can be used on multiple models. This makes it easier to retool plants to make multiple models, as well as making sourcing and designing simpler. So the majority of small and midsize SUVs are just cars that have a taller profile. So the person driving an Escape or an Equinox isn't doing anything different than in the past---just driving a car that has a lot better situational utility.

The second factual error that I see is that "Detroit" has fucked up anything. The three companies you name are Euro/Japanese brands that are responding to the same incentives the Big 3 are, namely that people want vehicles with space for passengers and cargo. That they can do this is more a reflection of gas prices than of marketing. Of course the companies want to sell as many SUVs as they can, because they have the highest margins by far. The Grand Cherokee and Ferrari were the sole reasons that FiatChrysler was not going bankrupt recently, the Grand Cherokee alone accounting for over $2 billion in profit.

The third thing that I think is inaccurate is that anyone, anytime buys anything purely out of utilitarian need. If we're going that far, then we might as well be wearing government shoes and outlawing jeans in favor of government-issued burlap sacks. We all make choices based on a combination of need, want, and price. How each of us makes that choice is mostly personal, and as soon as someone starts telling me I can't drive a truck (which I don't, but I have in the past) because I don't "need" one, I'm going to be screaming that no one needs a steak or ice cream or a single family home or almost anything that makes life more enjoyable for reasons other than pure utility. We're all living in glass houses.

The fourth thing, which is nit picky but no less true, is that mileage per se doesn't really mean a thing. What if I drive my Suburban 100 mi per week and you drive your Corolla 500 mi per week? It's unfair to make willy nilly assumptions about what other people do and why, because each of us may have a good reason we need that truck, even if collectively, it's evident that there might be too many of them on the road, and we therefore think that you don't need one. If we collectively decide we want fewer large vehicles on the road, then we need different tax policies, because the market has evidently spoken about what consumers want in a vehicle. Raise the gas tax (or put a surcharge on weight, since electric SUVs are coming soon--and anyway even a Tesla S weighs like 4,500 lbs or something) if you want fewer of those vehicles. But then you might end up with a Euro situation where everyone drives a diesel, which I don't think we want here, either.

The fifth thing is that the linked article is very suspect in its conclusion that trucks and SUVs actually kill pedestrians at a higher rate than cars. The data they present don't actually seem to support that, and I can 100% guarantee you that the people who design them care a whole lot about safety. This disingenuous bullshit about car companies designing cars they know are going to kill you is just dumb liberal anti-corporate bullshit that has no bearing on reality.

steve  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I fully accept all of these corrections and will only add comments for conversation - not trying to pick a fight.

    Car companies these days use a platform manufacturing systems

    the majority of small and midsize SUVs are just cars that have a taller profile

Touche, though I might argue that the taller profile does decrease fuel economy, but marginally.

    "Detroit" has fucked up anything. The three companies you name are Euro/Japanese brands

I know... I don't live there anymore, and arguably - never did live in the D itself, so I should probably STFU. My beefs with the big 3 are larger than this, but relevant to my rant is the marketing spin on cars being a reflection of you... but hey - I'm talking straight out of my ass because I'd be the first dude to slow my walk in a parking lot if I saw a vintage Hemi Cuda. I'm schizo about cars... I'll admit it.

    the companies want to sell as many SUVs as they can, because they have the highest margins by far.

but why? I don't get it. They can charge more... because.... they can charge more? I genuinely don't understand why SUVs are more profitable.

    we might as well be wearing government shoes and outlawing jeans in favor of government-issued burlap sacks.

Fair point. I know that freedom is choice is paramount... I think I'm just bugged that people make (what I think) are really dumb vehicular choices... again - fueled by the direct and indirect marketing around what cars/trucks/minivans "mean". I think we're collectively addicted... and the car companies are willing to keep slinging the smack. Our legislation around vehicles is SO MESSED UP that I can't even begin. Shoot... I should be glad for SUVs and trucks I guess. For a while, car companies had to make cars to balance out their fleet.

    If we collectively decide we want fewer large vehicles on the road, then we need different tax policies

yah... but it's really just me screaming into the void.

    But then you might end up with a Euro situation where everyone drives a diesel, which I don't think we want here, either.

Excellent point.

And to your fifth point - guilty confession - haven't even read the article yet. Just walking the comments and was reminded how much I hate Truck Nation before I was chemically balanced enough to make a rational, educated comment.

I think we'll still disagree on some things, and that's totally ok.

uhsguy  ·  1568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Honestly Steve, I’ve secretly wanted a van/minivan since my early 20. It’s basically a truck with a built in hard top. You can store all your gear dry in one, tow a medium boat and put down a bed to sleep in and fit a full sheet of plywood in. Just that when I was single I thought women would judge me, and now that I’m married I know my wife doesn’t want to own one so probably not happening.