Prayer doesn't necessarily HAVE to imply a religious connotation.... though I'm sure enough academics here would tell me I'm wrong if I didn't already acknowledge them here. The golden rule abounds! There's an interesting story behind the essence of the rule and the role of money, on a different note. Sending good vibes to Tennessee!
This comment has been floating around in the back of my head ever since you wrote it. And I think you are incorrect. Prayer is a plea to someone. A request for consideration or assistance, made to someone assumed to be able to have more of an effect on the subject than the person making the prayer. Without targeting your prayer at a figure, it is a wish. "I sure wish I had been born with blue hair." vs "Jibbers Crabst, please give me blue hair." Prayer without a religious connotation is wishing. I think. (?) What do you think? Prayer doesn't necessarily HAVE to imply a religious connotation ...
key words: object of worship. Object's are different than 'someone.' I wasn't thinking of right or wrong until you shared your thoughts. But now I see it as right or wrong. I think I'm right.a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.
Well, I was trying to be inclusive of prayer in its many forms. If you pray to God, Yahweh, Baal, Mother Earth, Zeus, or a circle of standing stones, it is still a prayer. The object of the prayer does not change the intent. Which brings me back to my "Prayer vs Wish" position: A prayer is asking a [insert noun here] to intervene in the natural order of things on your behalf. A wish is just expressing a desire for things to have been different.
This thread has been driving me nuts since yesterday because I was sure it reminded me of something Wittgenstein wrote, but couldn't remember where. It was Remarks on Frazer's Golden Bough. Here's the passage I was thinking of:One would like to say: This and that incident have taken place; laugh, if you can.
The religious actions, or the religious life, of the priest-king are no different in kind from any genuinely religious action of today, for example, a confession of sins. This, too, admits of being ‘explained’ and not explained.
Burning in effigy. Kissing the picture of one’s beloved. That is obviously not based on the belief that it will have some specific effect on the object which the picture represents. It aims at satisfaction and achieves it. Or rather: it aims at nothing at all; we just behave this way and then we feel satisfied.
One could also kiss the name of one’s beloved, and here it would be clear that the name was being used as a substitute.
The same savage, who stabs the picture of his enemy apparently in order to kill him, really builds his hut out of wood and carves his arrow skillfully and not in effigy.
The idea that one can summon an inanimate object to oneself as one can summon a person. Here the principle is that of personification.
And magic is always based on the idea of symbolism and language.
The representation of a wish is, eo ipso, the representation of its realization. But magic brings a wish to representation; it expresses a wish.
Interesting thoughts, Mr Wittgenstein! I still think there is a past/future element in the prayer/wish thing. You WISH things HAD BEEN different. Your PRAY for a result in the FUTURE. There is the case where you "blow out the candles and make a wish", but it has always sounded odd to me. "I wish someone would give me a Corvette" versus "I wish I hadn't crashed my Corvette." The first sounds wrong to my ear, while the second sounds right. Am I unique in this view of a wish being about the past, and a prayer being about the future?
'I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!' =D =D =D I understand your point, though - but I see a reality where prayer can be given for thanking past events. Look at how athletes give thanks to god for their performance under the limelight, for example..
There's something about a prayer that sits very well with my atheistic mind. byonic's been a very good listener to whatever rant I have on at the time, and I've expressed a lot of myself to him during the however-long we've been doing this. Sometimes, I express how I wish things to happen or have happened, but most of the time, I explore myself through verbalizing what I feel. Some people are content with writing it down; I need a person to listen to what I have on my mind. I think that this kind of exploration is an important part of a good prayer. I haven't attended or taken part in one myself, but from what I know about praying, it seems reasonable to assume that this - and not wishing - is should be the main point about it. Maybe people who pray in a religious sense talk to God the same way I talk to other people. Pinging rd95: I'd like your perspective on that as a religious person.
I'm on lunch at the moment. I would love to talk prayer with you and goobster sometime this weekend if you'd like. Let me just put this out there as a start and we can go from there. My view on prayer in a nutshell is, God isn't going to intercede in worldly affairs. A large purpose of prayer is to open yourself up to understanding and following the will of God. An additional purpose of prayer is to develop the spiritual qualities to allow you to navigate the world with strength, wisdom, and poise. Feel free to ask any questions off of that. Keep in mind that though I've been raised a Baha'i, my viewpoints should be considered only that and not as Baha'i theology.
Innnteresting! I had not considered that side of it. By voicing your desires, you are also taking ownership of them, rather than just pushing them down in the back of your brain. So whether you are "heard" by some god-being or not is of secondary benefit. The primary benefit is owning your desire and figuring out how to ask for what you want. That's a powerful thing. Meditative. Cool. That gives me some more nuanced insight into why people pray. (It's always been incomprehensible to me, so this is valuable. Thanks!) A large purpose of prayer is to open yourself up