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comment by OftenBen
OftenBen  ·  2910 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: “If you’re a person of prayer, we could use your prayers,”

    intervene

Is this the key point of the debate, yes?

Some would argue that if you pray and feel better at all, there has been intercession regardless if anything actually changes or not.





goobster  ·  2909 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well sure, prayer is the result. You have made your appeal. Now it is out of your hands.

user-inactivated  ·  2909 days ago  ·  link  ·  

This thread has been driving me nuts since yesterday because I was sure it reminded me of something Wittgenstein wrote, but couldn't remember where. It was Remarks on Frazer's Golden Bough. Here's the passage I was thinking of:

    One would like to say: This and that incident have taken place; laugh, if you can.

    The religious actions, or the religious life, of the priest-king are no different in kind from any genuinely religious action of today, for example, a confession of sins. This, too, admits of being ‘explained’ and not explained.

    Burning in effigy. Kissing the picture of one’s beloved. That is obviously not based on the belief that it will have some specific effect on the object which the picture represents. It aims at satisfaction and achieves it. Or rather: it aims at nothing at all; we just behave this way and then we feel satisfied.

    One could also kiss the name of one’s beloved, and here it would be clear that the name was being used as a substitute.

    The same savage, who stabs the picture of his enemy apparently in order to kill him, really builds his hut out of wood and carves his arrow skillfully and not in effigy.

    The idea that one can summon an inanimate object to oneself as one can summon a person. Here the principle is that of personification.

    And magic is always based on the idea of symbolism and language.

    The representation of a wish is, eo ipso, the representation of its realization. But magic brings a wish to representation; it expresses a wish.
goobster  ·  2909 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Interesting thoughts, Mr Wittgenstein!

I still think there is a past/future element in the prayer/wish thing.

You WISH things HAD BEEN different.

Your PRAY for a result in the FUTURE.

There is the case where you "blow out the candles and make a wish", but it has always sounded odd to me. "I wish someone would give me a Corvette" versus "I wish I hadn't crashed my Corvette." The first sounds wrong to my ear, while the second sounds right.

Am I unique in this view of a wish being about the past, and a prayer being about the future?

Deltron_0  ·  2908 days ago  ·  link  ·  

'I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!' =D =D =D

I understand your point, though - but I see a reality where prayer can be given for thanking past events. Look at how athletes give thanks to god for their performance under the limelight, for example..