ANATOMY OF A HUBSKI DUSTUP
I. THE INFLUX
- A. A New Cast of Characters
- - 1. Lots of new posts
- - 2. Lots of enthusiasm
- - 3. Lots of new social connections tested
- B. The Recurrents React
- - 1. "What tags do I filter?"
- - 2. "I'm going to stay away for a while."
- - 3. "Things will be fine when they get their sea legs."
II. THE CONFLICT
- A. Migrant Go Home
- - 1. "Hubski used to be cool now it's full of Reddit refugees"
- - 2. "Without new blood this place calcifies into an echo chamber"
- - 3. "The only constant is change"
- B. Mad As Hell and Not Going to Take It Anymore
- - 1. "You know what? Fuck you and the horse you rode in on."
- - 2. "Me too."
- - 3. ^q^q
III. THE DENUEMENT
- A. Pour one out for the departed
- - 1. "I miss X"
- - 2. "X left under similar circumstances to Y"
- - 3. "The World is Speedily Coming to an End"
- B. A Plague on both your houses
- - 1. "You insular shits reap what you sew"
- - 2. "If you want to see what's wrong look in the mirror"
- - 3. "Be the change you wish to see in the world"
- C. mk ponders ways in which the algorithm can be refined
- - 1. "This will fix all our problems"
- - 2. "This will fix none of our problems"
- - 3. "Can we stop talking about our problems? I'm in the middle of (major life change)."
RETURN TO I.
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We’ve done this a few times. We’ll do it a few times more. Personally, I’m invested in this site because it’s a social news aggregator, emphasis on the “social.” However, it’s also a “news aggregator” and those are hostile, angry places.
I’ve studied online behavior more than anybody else I know, and that’s frightening because I’ve known most of the community managers at Reddit. This shit is truly the Wild Wild West and everyone is working it out in real-time. Hubski has the distinct advantage of caring, which puts it lightyears ahead of Reddit, SA, 4chan, Imgur (yech - who woulda thunk?) or any other similar website. It’s also go the most robust method of dealing with content curation, in that there is no middle man between you and the site. Hubski puts users in absolute control over their feeds and their friends.
That does not mean, however, that Hubski gives them the best tools to do so.
I’ve been following my own behavior and observing the behavior of others across several different forums, both open and closed. I’ve been paying particular attention to Hubski and the connections formed here and I think I’ve come up with a hypothesis.
HUBSKI IS NOT YOUR FRIEND
Hubski is just a place where friends congregate. HOWEVER because the visual and conversant cues we receive do almost nothing to differentiate one person from another, WE SUBCONSCIOUSLY RECOGNIZE EACH OTHER AS OUR FRIEND “HUBSKI.”
Think about it. To you, I’m either blue, green, gray or teal. You’ve probably never even said my name aloud (and looking at it now, you’re wondering how you would). If you click on my name, you see a weird cat-thing that you likely don’t understand and a bunch of ridiculous stats. I might as well be a line in a database.
But because this website is so deeply wired towards human connections, we all form them. This website is what it is because we all treat each other as human. there’s more affinity here than there will ever be on Reddit, except in some of those quiet, private corners still left in the dross. So we’re trying to treat each other as friends, but the visual cues we get aren’t allowing us to subconsciously distinguish each other. When someone says something nice, “Hubski” is saying something nice. When someone says something mean, “Hubski” is saying something mean.
This problem extends to new members - they see “hubski” being very chatty and insular… with itself. Hubski becomes a “person” that isn’t trying very hard to be your friend, rather than a community of friends that hasn’t yet warmed up to you. When one person on Hubski treats you poorly, all people on Hubski are treating you poorly.
I don’t see this problem nearly as often on VBulletins. VBs go out of their way to put your name, your avatar, and a little bit about you next to everything you say. The site of any VB is pretty much limited to color; on the other hand, Reddit’s functionality, Hubski’s functionality, slashdot’s functionality, Hacker News’ functionality are all different enough that it’s the site that’s distinctive while the users are effectively anonymized.
BUT YOUR FRIENDS ARE ON HUBSKI
My deepest regret on Reddit is functionality I couldn’t make happen. Kickme444 was a friend of mine before he worked for Reddit, and HonestBleeps said nice things about me in private, too. Me and Dan were talking one night about how redditgifts.com is a lot more human than Reddit - it’s got (optional) real names, it’s got avatars, it’s got participation, it’s got all that “human” stuff that Reddit sorely lacks. So I approached Dan - could that stuff be scraped? And I approached HonestBleeps - could RES pull info off Redditgifts?
The idea would be that a double opt-in (you as the profile holder, you as the profile seeker) have both approved “yes, I want RES to provide RedditGifts info on a Redditor’s profile page.” Either side could opt out at any time, and either side would be opt-out by default. But if you both agree, suddenly that stupid username that is clearly a shitcamel becomes a friendly, smiling kid from Michigan who likes Yu-Gi-Oh. Would it have “solved” reddit? I doubt it. Would it have made Reddit a lot more human?
I firmly believe so.
Hubski provides limited customization of one’s profile page. This limited customization is miles ahead of its competitors, but it’s still pretty spare. More than that, there’s absolutely no marker of affinity between you and someone else beyond changing the color of your name. This is not a fault of Hubski, because again, it’s further along than anywhere else. But I don’t think it’s far enough along.
AND YOU SHOULD KNOW IT
Nothing that follows has been considered beyond the “spitballing” stage. I was talking about this with mk yesterday and we were going to chat, but I thought it might be more useful to get everyone to opine since the strategic development of Hubski is crowdsourced more than any place I’ve ever been (even if the coding is not). The general idea would be simple, low-impact ways in which users can be differentiated from each other in order to better align our members psychologically with “I’m talking to a bunch of people on a website” and away from “i’m talking to a website.” Pulled completely out of my ass:
- There should be more information shared on your profile page if you’re following the person looking at it. This should be opt-in information and we should come up with a way to psychologically incentivize it.
- When I look at someone else’s profile page, I should see it in their theme, not mine.
- I should be able to see the content and comments I’ve shared by someone very easily, ideally from the main page.
- I should be able to customize the way my name appears (color, font, points, etc) for people who follow me. People who follow me should tell me that bold italic gothic in 18 point blue is pompous as fuck.
- I know mk hates the fuck out of avatars, but I should be able to opt-in to a hover avatar, especially for people who follow me.
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THAT’S ENOUGH
Basically, I think this site is very good at getting people to talk at a deeper level than they would on any other news aggregator, but not as good at reminding people that every one of us is a different person with different wants, needs, desires, peeves and pleasures. I think we all benefit by differentiating this from a sheer stability standpoint. The more we can say “That guy pisses me off” the less often we’ll say “Hubski pisses me off” because the problem with a love/hate relationship is half the time you’re angry.
Anyway. Now I need to eat lunch.
I'm putting a flaming hit-counter at the bottom of my profile. Edit: Better idea.
Thanks for this. I can dig allowing better identification, and highlighting user relationships. Although I am against using pic avatars here for a number of reasons (policing them, aesthetic, distraction, etc.), I am more open to customization within some sort of constraints. insomniasexx pointed out that Designer News gives folk a pixel grid, which they can design however they wish. I also like Cedar's suggestion of choosing a color sequence. I really like zebra2's suggestion of having information revealed as you reply to the user. It doesn't add much clutter, and it is a good time to remind the commentor that the parent was written by a human. We were discussing this last night, and the idea of adding a note about a user came up again, much like rd95 suggested. Here's an example of something that might incorporate some of these ideas, it would be revealed when I reply to elizabeth: In addition to interaction data, there are two tweet-sized notes. You can choose a signature that others replying to you see, and they can add a note on your profile page, which appears to them when they reply. There are a number of modifications we could make to this, including some sort of constrained avatar. Suggestions/alternatives?
However small or nitpicky, there are a number of differences between avatars and images in the sidebar of a users profile. 1. We don't make it explicit that they are allowed (or disallowed) -- the sidebar simply uses the same markup as comments. Some users have chosen to place an embedded image there but it looks and feels fine with or without an image. 2. Avatars would be their own dedicated field and therefore users would feel compelled to upload something. But, just in case they don't, we would also need to make a "no avatar" avatar, which is a more complicated decision than one might expect. Facebook --- Designer News --- Empty States in General Also, do we crop them for you, allow you to crop them, etc. etc. (FYI, if you allow avatar uploading these days, users expect to have the ability to edit/crop like they can on facebook. It's terrible because Facebook's functionality is pretty rock-solid due to years of improvements and user testing and a great deal of code). 3. Would we host these images on hubski.com (eek!) or 3rd party image providers? While imgur is pretty good about allowing users to upload images and embedding them anywhere, they have been known to shut down embedded photos for specific sites/forums if they generate an insane amount of clicks. A random forum I was on actually had imgur block all their embedded images (not just avatars) on the forum unless they were uploaded by a paid account. I don't think the forum was generating that many clicks. 3b. The weight of a page loading images would increase ~100kb (this is a v. high estimate) per image, depending on sizes we allowed and if we implemented some backend jazz to rescale/convert/compress. That means a page with 20 comments would now be an additional 4mb. Even if we say each image is 50kb, that's 2mb for 20 comments. 4. When you visit a user's profile, it is assumed that the content on their page is theirs and chosen to be shared by them. Profile pages are visited relatively infrequently and with the intention that you you want to learn more about a user. If I were to visit a profile page and see a big dong, I would blame that user, not Hubski, and I would succeed in learning something new about said user. However, when you are on a post / pub page (like this one), your intentions are to read the post / comments and interact with others. A dong photo, or any number of photos, would disrupt that experience and give users who came to read the post something that they were not looking for. This is not just for users of the site - I can also take a post page, specific comment, or global feel, email it to my mother, post it on my facebook, or do whatever I want with it without being scared that a dong might pop up in their face. 5. Additionally the content on post pages is a mixture of users and (in the case of muting) can be somewhat controlled by the original poster because it is technically "mk's post" or "_refugee_'s post". Would we see an influx of muting or dissuasion of posting your own posts elsewhere (like facebook/twitter) because there are rogue commenters with inappropriate photos? BTW, what constitutes and inappropriate photo? Dongs? Butts? KKK hoods? Girl in bikini? Hot shirtless guy? Ugly shirtless guy? 5. Photos, even not dong-shots, would be helpful in some cases and detrimental in others. While a flower may remind you who I am, would that flower cause you read my comments, even those comments which are non-gender-related, as if I were a girl? Would that affect the interaction you had with me positively or negatively? While most hubskiers know my gender, there are always a few noobs who assume I am male (because the entire internet is male). Elsewhere on the internet I am more often male than female. I never take offense to this because I don't think my gender should come into play, except when I am using my experience as a female as a base for my comments (ie: I know what it's like to bleed once a month because I am a bloody female.) Anyways, I'm obviously not a fan of avatars. I do like Designer New's pixel art creation but I don't like that I never feel like mine is good enough or represents me enough. I've also redone it like 10 times and spent upwards of 20 hours on it. The big images were lost during the server move so I started redoing that the other day when I was hungover. I've spent more time on Designer News making pixel art than I have commenting on Designer News.
There is definitely room for some sort of small image to the right of "my interactions." That said, I too am not interested in policing image content. I say we move forward with exactly what you've shown here to start. It's awesome! I like that we can control our message to people. "Check out tng podcast" for example, would definitely be mine. I'd be excited to see what people put there about themselves. I think we would get a further glimpse in to people we've been interacting with for a long time, some for years.
Hmm. I like the signature idea, but I don't like the idea of having to hit the reply button for it to show up. What if you made a button, for that information to pop up, much like you do to see who shared a post or who is following a user? Edit: And maybe you can make it two lines, one that each person makes for themself, the other each user can customize for who they looking at, much like the customizable user tag idea.
I'm not sure this is different, as you needn't navigate to another page, it simply reveals the info in the reply drop down. The button says 'reply', but it works as an info button as well. That's what is there: elizabeth's signature, and my notes on elizabeth.Hmm. I like the signature idea, but I don't like the idea of having to hit the reply button for it to show up. What if you made a button, for that information to pop up, much like you do to see who shared a post or who is following a user?
Edit: And maybe you can make it two lines, one that each person makes for themself, the other each user can customize for who they looking at, much like the customizable user tag idea.
I don't know how difficult this would be to code, but what about a hover-to-view sort of thing? Hover over someone's username and you see a blurb with interactions and the two info lines. I just feel like tacking this on to the reply button adds a whole lot of clutter.
Yeah, but I feel that if you did that, it would clash with the rest of the mechanics of the site. As in, the feature serves a similar purpose, but suddenly you have to go about getting the information in a different way. Ah. I gotcha. I guess I read that wrong. It's definitely a good idea.I'm not sure this is different, as you needn't navigate to another page, it simply reveals the info in the reply drop down. The button says 'reply', but it works as an info button as well.
That's what is there: elizabeth's signature, and my notes on elizabeth.
This post reminded me to put a weird cat on my bio.
It's interesting... I've never thought of hubski as something to be mad at. I've only ever had emotional reactions to the people here. I don't get upset at the walls, floor, or light fixtures in a room where I'm meeting people socially - I can't imagine getting mad at "hubski". I've noticed when a lightbulb goes out or made suggestions for different features, but I can say I've never been upset by the room. But then again - I am a fairly lazy user. I drift in and drift out. I rarely get invested in the "U NO WUT WOOD MAKE THIS PLACES THE BESTEST?!?!" discussions (that often happen with surges of new users). I just enjoy it for what it is, and occasionally try to help it organically grow. The connections I make with people here are far more important to me than the mechanics behind it. That being said - the spartan user profiles.... could maybe use some improvement. - What was for lunch? I hope it was amaze-balls.I think we all benefit by differentiating this from a sheer stability standpoint. The more we can say “That guy pisses me off” the less often we’ll say “Hubski pisses me off” because the problem with a love/hate relationship is half the time you’re angry.
I completely agree, while I respect the minimalism the site is striving for it really does have a negative affect on discussion; most comments sections appear as a stream of black and white occasionally broken up by some blue and it is far too impersonal. I don't think that Avatars are necessarily the only way to go nor even the right way. I propose give users a few dots next to their username and let them choose the colours of them, this would give sufficient personality and distinction to comments and help users recognise their friends at a glance. It wouldn't be too difficult to implement, nor require much space to store, certainly less than an avatar system would. It would be tempting to tie earning these dots in with the badge system, but something doesn't quite sit right with that idea to me... though perhaps an extra one or two as a donation perk would be okay. Edit: Like this, but preferably in-line with the current name and time
Hmm. I get it, I do, but I see two draw backs. The minimalization of this website comes from being text based. Adding more and more non-text elements would detract from the sites aesthetics. At the same time, I doubt that a series of colored dots would do much to successfully convey needed information.
I think this would be very helpful to visual learners. Rather than remembering names you can see all red dots and know who a person is. Maybe you could also have a few different shapes to help differentiate as some might choose the same colours. Instead of it being "all reds" it is now "all square reds" or "all star reds". Its a nice bit of costumisation that i think goes with the website's minimalistic look and doesn't involve the use of avatars.
I can definitely understand the point about users looking like just a line of data, especially for newcomers. On reddit if someone says "oh, I've seen this guy posting here before", I think: how do you even notice them as an individual? I think most of the time I don't even look at usernames on reddit. Here, I could see the same thing happening. I've been on the site long enough that the veil of impersonality for all the frequent users has melted away and I can actually pin an individual with opinions, thoughts, and feelings on their pen name. If I were new I would have no way to do that. I know some subreddits utilize a line of flair (which may be entirely customizable) which I think helps a lot to put a person to the name. Another idea to throw in the pot. I think the key to new identifiers is that they should be tasteful and have some form of uniformity within the site's aesthetic, lest we look like a geocities page. So if we use avatars, it should be something within certain confines (like the little circle G+ uses, eg.).
I never look/ed at screen names on reddit. When I came to Hubski I had to learn that it was important here. I think I lurked a lot so it wasn't a blatant issue that I publicly overcome, but I remember realizing that users had histories here. I think users having avatars and personalization would actually help the old guard too. When a big wave of users comes in it is easy for me to confuse new users because there are so many and I have no history with any of them. This happened with the recent wave. If I can recognize you beyond your name (and some users, not that I begrudge you, have names that are more confusing than specifically memorable) it will help me remember that maybe we've actually had a positive interaction, and that dickbag I'm thinking of is someone else.
I've never had that problem myself, but now that I think about, I can see how it'd be an issue for people who are used to an environment as large as Reddit. What does help in Hubski's favor is that this place is so small you easily run into the frequent posters day in and day out, making learning who is who an easy thing. It's the infrequent posters that pose a bit of an identifying dilemma.
Someone suggested to mk, and I think he is looking into it, the idea of having the ability to privately tag users. I kind of like this idea, as it's not something I've seen done yet.I've been on the site long enough that the veil of impersonality for all the frequent users has melted away and I can actually pin an individual with opinions, thoughts, and feelings on their pen name. If I were new I would have no way to do that.
I know some subreddits utilize a line of flair (which may be entirely customizable) which I think helps a lot to put a person to the name. Another idea to throw in the pot.
Private tags have their uses, but "identity" is not one of them. I don't know if you can add friends on Reddit anymore. You used to be able to. I'd "friend" everybody who ever said, publicly or privately, that they'd "friended" me - which accomplishes nothing other than turning names red. At one point there were over 300 people on my "friends" list. Most of them have deleted their accounts. I probably see a "friend" twice a year. But back in the day, it sure helped knowing that I was talking to someone who actually gave a shit about me... ...and this is the functionality we get simply from green vs. gray names.
It's a private tag. It could be used in so many ways, including as an identifier of sort. Personally, I'd use it to sumarize people. For example, if I was another user tagging my profile, it might say "nerd,cars,martialarts." That right there would be enough to jog my memory on people. I'm actually waiting to see if mk will implement this idea or not. If not, I'm seriously thinking about keeping a notebook next to my computer to better keep track of people I don't interact with as often on here.Private tags have their uses, but "identity" is not one of them.
- There should be more information shared on your profile page if you’re following the person looking at it. This should be opt-in information and we should come up with a way to psychologically incentivize it.
- When I look at someone else’s profile page, I should see it in their theme, not mine.
I think this is a fine idea. Especially as the options expand as the API is utilized by those with the ability to expand it. - I should be able to see the content and comments I’ve shared by someone very easily, ideally from the main page. My guess is that if the below options existed it wouldn't be as necessary to make this a main page function. My biggest problem right now is that there is a level of user that I would consider an "acquaintance" and I mix them up with other users. If they had an avatar, I would be able to remember them MUCH more easily and remember my past interactions. I'm a visual learner and this would solve MANY woes for me here. - I should be able to customize the way my name appears (color, font, points, etc) for people who follow me.
People who follow me should tell me that bold italic gothic in 18 point blue is pompous as fuck.
I'm not too keen on that. I think a hover avatar solves for anything the font would and I don't need my feed full of weird fonts etc. I like how clean the site looks. That said, this could easily be an opt-in thing that I just never turn on. - I know mk hates the fuck out of avatars, but I should be able to opt-in to a hover avatar, especially for people who follow me. I love this idea. Always have. Again, I'm a visual learner and would get so much mileage out of such a thing. I think it was elizabeth that recently commented that she was impressed with how I remember various hubskiers etc on the site and suggested that I must have a secret spread-sheet (I don't) -I literally just remember everyone cuz I consider many of you friends. I could VASTLY extend that network of remembered interactions if people had avatars I could see when I hovered over their names etc. I once suggested that users could upload any image/photo and it could be automatically pixalated a-la the WSJ: Probably an awful idea, but it could keep the site looking clean while giving people some creativity and giving users the ability to distinguish people and remember them better. Written quickly, apologies for any typos. Edit: Also, I want to say thank you to you and to the others that take the time not to just gripe about something but to suggest solutions. You are right, this site is and will continue to be driven by ideas that largely originate from those that use the site. Why wouldn't it? But yeah, thanks. This is great stuff KB.
" I think it was elizabeth that recently commented that she was impressed with how I remember various hubskiers " See?! How do you even remember that !?! I've always had terrible memory for names and basic information about people, which is particularly bad if you want to do anything business related as I aspire too. Do you have any tips on how to keep all these things in mind? Or is it just all about being more conscious of it and paying more attention when people introduce themselves?
thenewgreen is amazing at this. I often mix up users for NO REASON. For example, for some reason flagamuffin and ButterflyEffect - these are two people that only have hubski in common - but for some reason, I mix up who I think they are all the time. And then there was the time I called out demure instead of galen... there are a ton more where for no logical reason, my brain mismatches usernames. It probably has a lot to do with not seeing your faces. I'm usually much better when I have a face.
Well, I mean, have you ever seen us in the same thread at the same time?
I don't use any tricks etc. I just really care about Hubski a lot and therefore, I remember stuff. Especially content that I find interesting. Trust me, I am far less likely to recall something in my professional life. I remember stuff about my friends IRL etc too. Basically, if its something I care about, I remember it.
Or maybe a button that will toggle the view between theirs and yours.When I look at someone else’s profile page, I should see it in their theme, not mine.
Further: Zen mode should not (as it currently does) obscure personal information from people's profiles. I sort of see the rationale, but IMO the ability to differentiate people is more important than the incentive not to judge based on profile. Unless I'm totally misjudging the intention.
Give a man a name and he'll be forgotten in a day. Give a man an avatar and he'll be forgotten in a week.
Ok, so I just had another idea to throw out there. We've recently incorporated a feed at the bottom of the page that highlights other posts from the user/tag. It helps give background and makes everything a little more networked. How about when you hit the reply button for a comment, a similar thing drops down with the comment box, effectively taking some of the user's background and rubbing it in your face? If not that, maybe the sidebar from their page would be better. I think that would be better actually.
I neglected to mention the three links at the bottom, and I shouldn't have. it's a great path towards personalization and the hubski crew got short shrift by my not pointing it out. I have no idea how well any of these ideas would work but see a lot of ones I think are good. I also think we all benefit by my not attempting to run this conversation in any way as my ideas already have too much weight in this instance.
How about when you hit the reply button for a comment, a similar thing drops down with the comment box, effectively taking some of the user's background and rubbing it in your face?
I dig this idea. Thanks zebra2! mk, insomniasexx, rob05c, forwardslash
- When I look at someone else’s profile page, I should see it in their theme, not mine.
Yes! A thousand times this. Being able to distinguish users was the whole reason I thought up the interactions thing. There's a post of mine from ages ago with I think thenewgreen about avatars where I proposed that people should be able to add RES-like tags to people. Maybe even give it a color. Or, better, let me choose what color/font/whatevs the people I follow look like (because I might deeply hate your Gothic typeface, Klein). But yeah, just like on facebook, if I can better recognize you, I will sooner care about you and think of you as someone not like everyone else. As long as a feature is not too taxing on the servers I'm all for it.
I totally agree 100%. I think also the anonymity on cites like these makes it easier for strangers to feel no reason to be kind or caring to each other online. If they insult you its as if they just insulted a string of letters (your user name) not a real person. There where times when I would walk away from a conversation online feeling very insulted and upset making me less likely to post.
I say it kline-blue. I think all your suggestions are interesting, and I think some of them should probably be tried, but my gut reaction is that none of them will work. For the people who are here now, they will be an interesting change that will eventually become standard. For new people they'll simply be the way the site always was. Those new people will set up their profiles on the first day, because tweaking fonts is less scary than talking to people, then never think about it again. How many people regularly edit or updated their bios? I think there are answers in the technology, but the only thing that will actually keep the site on course as a place full of humans are the humans that fill it. You're an abrasive man. You've shown that to me and a hundred others who came here thinking they were speaking into the void. It wasn't some design or some code that showed me that people lived here, it was the fact that the people talked to me. They weren't gentle, I wasn't slowly lowered into it, they interacted with me as they were and that's what set the tone.
I'm a newb, so I don't really have much to say besides. 1) I like the minimalist and uniform design. It was one of the first things that drew me in. 2) I used to be active on Tumblr, and I saw these kinds of generalizing statements all the time. And Tumblr users are infamous for their highly unique identity labels. I see it more of a matter of what kind of culture does the website engender than individual user profiles.When someone says something nice, “Hubski” is saying something nice. When someone says something mean, “Hubski” is saying something mean.