I 100% agree with kleinbl00. People are quick to get mad and accuse you of being a terrible person and all that for saying something that you couldn't know would upset them. Something with no intention of harm. Sometimes people are too sensitive and instead of removing themselves from the things that upset them or coming to terms with them they lash out because they are uncomfortable. I can't rely to his comment because he has me blocked but I can't let that stop me. =D
I've never understood why people bring up "intent" as if it makes things better. Like with kleinbl00's comment, he almost seems pissed off that someone was hurt by his comment. Sure, it's great that people aren't intentionally going out there to increase or exacerbate someone's trauma, but when the discussion stops being "I fucked up and hurt some people, so I took their advice on board to prevent it happening again in the future" and becomes more "they took umbrage with me even though I had no ill intentions, they were just looking for offense and wouldn't shut up long enough for me to tell them why they're wrong", you know you're an asshole.
I'm not saying we shouldn't take it into account when we hurt someone and try to avoid it in the future. What I'm saying is that people often just get mad and instead of accepting the apology and moving on they want to keep being the victim and hold onto it. I get that it was traumatic for you. I get that certain things will upset you but I can't know all of those things for everyone and I'm not going to spend my life learning to be PC on everything so I can hopefully not offend someone. I have traumatic experiences too. Do I like taking about them, no. Am I mad when someone else doesn't and can't understand because they didn't go through it. Hell no and they shouldn't be either. People can only hurt you if you let them. Do not take that out of context. I don't mean that rape victims let people rape them. I mean we choose whether to get offended and hold onto things. Sometimes it's hard to let go but as adults that all at can do to protect ourselves. You simply can't rely on other people to walk on eggshells all the time in case someone gets offended. Again, no offense intended.
I think that happens very rarely though. Normally when people who do the hurting interpret the situation that way, something else entirely is actually going on. Specifically, the person who "apologises" will usually give a non-apology - for example, "I'm sorry for any offence I may have caused". That's cool, but it's not really taking responsibility for that person doing the hurting and saying they'll try to not do it again. It's like if I step on your foot and you tell me I hurt you. Saying "I apologise for your sore toe" is a really weird way of phrasing it, and it's weird because it's an apology where the person is actively distancing themselves from responsibility. In reality what you want to hear is: "I'm sorry I stepped on your toe and hurt you, I should be more careful in future". It's not really difficult though (and obviously has nothing at all to do with "being PC"). Just use some common sense and treat people with basic respect and when you fuck up (because it's inevitable given that, as you say, you can't learn everyone's problems) you accept responsibility and try to be better in future. With the toe stepping example again, I don't get angry when people tell me I hurt their foot. I don't complain about how hard it is to learn all the different body parts hurt that when stepped on. I make basic assumptions that their body will be similar to mine so some things I know are wrong, and when I learn they don't like their toes being stepped on I stop it. I don't complain about it "being PC" because it doesn't happen to be a concern for me. Sure, but nobody is mad that everyone doesn't implicitly understand viewpoints and experiences massively different from their own. It's that they hurt someone and instead of understanding why by listening to the person explain, they're too busy reasserting that they didn't intend to. This is just blatantly, demonstrably, and undeniably false though. You can do things to protect yourself, minimise harm, reduce chances of bad things happening, but ultimately you don't have control over what hurts you when it hits you. And it's got nothing to do with people walking on eggshells. I've never understood that comparison. If someone tells me that it hurts when I punch them in the face, I don't wax philosophic and pontificate on how "pain is all like, in the mind, man" and tell them I don't have time to walk on eggshells around them with their weird demands for me to not break noses.What I'm saying is that people often just get mad and instead of accepting the apology and moving on they want to keep being the victim and hold onto it.
but I can't know all of those things for everyone and I'm not going to spend my life learning to be PC on everything so I can hopefully not offend someone.
Am I mad when someone else doesn't and can't understand because they didn't go through it. Hell no and they shouldn't be either.
People can only hurt you if you let them. Do not take that out of context.
That's all good and all that but you missed the point of my post. The easiest way to not get hurt is to learn to let it go. It's hard. Honestly I'm a pretty empathetic person when something like that happens irl. I have no problem accepting that I hurt another and apologizing for it and actually meaning it. I'm not out there to hurt you and am sorry for it when it happens. At that point there is nothing else u can really do. It's on the other person at this point. They can accept that it happened accidentally and that I'm sorry or not. I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over it. If I did life would be miserable and I'm already melancholy enough. When something that is that hurtful in someone's past comes up people don't always think or react rationally. Actually a lot of the time there is an instant outburst of anger and frustration and at that point people don't care about an apology because they are hurt and its your fault. This is why removing yourself is so important when someone hurts you with a trigger like that. Your toe stepping example is not a valid comparison in that it is obvious that stepping on any body party of anyone hurts whereas a hidden trigger that you couldn't know about is not obvious. Walking on eggshells means going out of your way to make sure you don't offend or hurt someone accidentally. It has nothing to do with pain being a thing of the mind. We can go on and on all day with this but in the end it's up to the person who was hurt to decide what they are going to do from there. I have not only fulfilled my societal obligation, I have fulfilled my empathy obligation as well. Beyond that there is nothing that can be done short of turning back time. After all, we can't control others. All we can do is control ourselves and our own actions and reactions. At this point I really don't have anything more to say on the topic as you are bound to disagree with me no matter what I say. Most likely you know someone or you yourself have something in your past you can't let go of so it hits close to home. I know I struggled with it for years. I recommend therapy. It can teach one a lot about how to deal with those situations on ones own end without needing everyone else to bend to ones own discomfort.
I think you missed the point of my post. I was simply responding to the "it wasn't my intention" idea and how that tied into reactions like kleinbl00's that treat that almost as a 'get out of jail free' card. If you agree that people should apologise, take responsibility, and aim to adjust their behavior for the future, then that's awesome - no disagreement with you, I just don't like the "intention" defence. True but that doesn't mean apologies aren't a good idea (even if they come later when the person has had time to calm down and compose themselves). As my girlfriend often tells me (in unrelated matters): "You can't win but there are better ways to lose". An apology isn't going to magically make them feel better and suddenly start having a calm, 'rational' discussion, but it's often better than them thinking they've just been insulted by someone who doesn't care at all. Well that's why in my example I specifically stated that I didn't know that toe stepping would hurt. If that's not clear enough then just change the example to a hidden pain, like suppose someone hurt their back the day before or they have a sunburn under their shirt, and you slap their back when you greet them. Hidden injury, no way of knowing beforehand you'd hurt them, same points apply that I make above. I get what the saying means, it just doesn't make sense in this context because it's not like it's difficult or overly demanding to generally avoid hurting people. Most people can get through their life very rarely seriously upsetting someone with the issues discussed here, but like I say, sometimes it'll be inevitable and we learn from it, then move on. Not really walking on eggshells, more like just living your life and not being a dick to people. Sure but they obviously already know this. If the person is like you and apologises, accepts responsibility, and attempts to adjust their behavior in future then there's not really anything more that they need. Not at all. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences but I come from it mostly from a scientific background, where I've read the research on this and related topics which shows that it's best from most outcome measures to care about the well-being of others. And just to be clear, I'm not "bound to disagree" at all. I'm willing to be swayed if a good counterpoint could be made but I'm honestly not sure anyone could argue against my original point, which can be summarised as: "Saying you didn't intend to do something doesn't take the pain away, and apologising then avoiding doing the same thing again in the future is a non-dickish way to live your life". I don't disagree that people who are affected can help minimise harm by taking their own steps to protecting themselves. But similarly we have a responsibility not to go out of our way to harm others when very simple measures can be taken to avoid it. So people with hidden sunburns can take steps to minimise how much it hurts, but similarly after an experience of slapping someone's back and hurting them, I can take that as a learning experience not to just slap people on the back.Honestly I'm a pretty empathetic person when something like that happens irl. I have no problem accepting that I hurt another and apologizing for it and actually meaning it.
Actually a lot of the time there is an instant outburst of anger and frustration and at that point people don't care about an apology because they are hurt and its your fault.
Your toe stepping example is not a valid comparison in that it is obvious that stepping on any body party of anyone hurts whereas a hidden trigger that you couldn't know about is not obvious.
Walking on eggshells means going out of your way to make sure you don't offend or hurt someone accidentally. It has nothing to do with pain being a thing of the mind.
We can go on and on all day with this but in the end it's up to the person who was hurt to decide what they are going to do from there. I have not only fulfilled my societal obligation, I have fulfilled my empathy obligation as well. Beyond that there is nothing that can be done short of turning back time. After all, we can't control others. All we can do is control ourselves and our own actions and reactions.
At this point I really don't have anything more to say on the topic as you are bound to disagree with me no matter what I say. Most likely you know someone or you yourself have something in your past you can't let go of so it hits close to home. I know I struggled with it for years. I recommend therapy. It can teach one a lot about how to deal with those situations on ones own end without needing everyone else to bend to ones own discomfort.
That's not a discussion, that's a narrative. That someone was hurt by what you said does not automatically mean that you "fucked up". Individual feelings don't magically override every other thing in the world. If you're in a comedy club and a comedian makes a joke that upsets you, well, you're in a comedy club. It's not about you being upset, it's about the comedian making people laugh. If you're so upset that you can't enjoy it you should leave. It's unfortunate that you're upset but it doesn't mean the comedian made a mistake. If you're in a classroom and someone says something you disagree with and it makes you uncomfortable, that doesn't mean they fucked up either! You're taking part in an environment that promotes the exchange of ideas for educational purposes. If you're afraid of being exposed to ideas that you may disagree with, it's not the place for you. That some of us may be fragile does not mean that the rest of the world must come to a halt. It means that you'd better go buy yourself a nice padded suit, or hang out in a padded room, or buck up.
You're right, individual feelings don't magically override every other thing in the world and that's why if you do something that hurts someone else, then that's traditionally considered a "fuck up" - i.e. a mistake that hurt someone (assuming they weren't intentionally trying to hurt someone, as that wouldn't be a mistake). I don't see the distinction you're making here. If someone goes to a comedy club expecting a funny night out, and the comedian starts joking about something that seriously affects them (like a rape joke), then they'll usually leave or keep quiet anyway because they're upset. But that doesn't mean the comedian didn't fuck up. Sure, I'm assuming here that people don't intentionally want to hurt others and in that case doing something which you think is harmless, that ends up harming others, would be a fuck up. Suppose I have a clown act and people come to see my show. At one point I squirt water from the flower on my chest and it fires off in a random direction, soaks someone's brand new phone and ruins it. Sure, the person can just leave, the clown show is to entertain people and it does, people find it hilarious that my act has ruined this dude's brand new phone. Does that mean I didn't fuck up because my act fulfilled its purpose? Of course not. I think you've misunderstood the topic here, nobody is talking about being afraid of being exposed to ideas that they disagree with. That has literally absolutely nothing to do with triggers. The point of asking for trigger warnings is precisely so discussion can occur without hurting someone and interrupting the discussion by having them have a panic attack or episode, or have to leave the room in the middle. Basically, anyone who isn't on board with trigger warnings is essentially scared of new ideas and perspectives being put forward, which obviously has no place in a university. But nobody is asking the world to come to a halt, what are you talking about? The main themes in this thread are: 1) triggers warnings can be useful, so if you're about to give a lecture that involves graphic discussion of rape, maybe start it by saying: "Just so you know, some discussion of rape will be occurring today", and 2) if someone is hurt by your actions, that's a shitty thing even if you didn't intend to hurt them. Neither of those things require a "halt" to society. The first takes 2 seconds in order to allow a full and open discussion where nobody gets hurt and everyone gets exposed to new ideas and new perspectives, and the second requires you to do absolutely nothing different since it's just a description of a causal relationship (if you do X and X hurts someone without your intention, it is called a "fuck up").That someone was hurt by what you said does not automatically mean that you "fucked up". Individual feelings don't magically override every other thing in the world.
If you're in a comedy club and a comedian makes a joke that upsets you, well, you're in a comedy club. It's not about you being upset, it's about the comedian making people laugh. If you're so upset that you can't enjoy it you should leave. It's unfortunate that you're upset but it doesn't mean the comedian made a mistake.
If you're in a classroom and someone says something you disagree with and it makes you uncomfortable, that doesn't mean they fucked up either! You're taking part in an environment that promotes the exchange of ideas for educational purposes. If you're afraid of being exposed to ideas that you may disagree with, it's not the place for you.
That some of us may be fragile does not mean that the rest of the world must come to a halt. It means that you'd better go buy yourself a nice padded suit, or hang out in a padded room, or buck up.
I'm an artist. I paint a picture of Jesus taking a shit and hang it up in the Met. Christians everywhere are pissed. Some people are so offended by the painting it makes them cry. Did I fuck up? Nope. Art that offends only "fucks up" if its goal is to be inoffensive. Personally, I'm not all that captivated by art that first and foremost attempts to be inoffensive. I don't think comedy is as funny when you tiptoe around every single person in the room's personal experiences. I've had traumatic experiences, my life isn't what it could be because of them, and it's comedy that keeps me going. Comedy makes every day worth living. It's probably the primary reason I never bothered to kill myself. That's not just the case for me, that's the case for a lot of comedy fans, and moreover, a massive proportion of comedians. Comedy and depression overlap like bacon and cheese. So no, I don't think comedians fuck up if while bringing joy to a massive number of people who really need it they accidentally offend people who should, being as sensitive as they are, really know better than to hang out in comedy clubs. If you go to a comedy club with any sort of chip on your shoulder, you should expect to be offended. That's not what comedy clubs are for, they're for letting go and laughing. The point of asking for trigger warnings is precisely so discussion can occur without hurting someone and interrupting the discussion by having them have a panic attack or episode, or have to leave the room in the middle. Basically, anyone who isn't on board with trigger warnings is essentially scared of new ideas and perspectives being put forward, which obviously has no place in a university. Which is frankly ridiculous. Adults need to be able to deal with a world that isn't tailored to their specifications, because the world is not. Treating college students like children is not preparing people for the world. And as far as PTSD goes, isolating people from difficult stimuli is the exact opposite of what psychologists recommend. Psychologists push for gradual exposure to triggering stimuli in order to lessen the impact, not avoidance. Beside which, do you have any idea how diverse triggering stimuli for PTSD are? It can be pretty much anything. We can't ask the world to tiptoe around us. I mean, sure, maybe our friends and our family should know what makes us tick so they can make us comfortable, but unless you walk around with a sign hanging from your neck that explains all your triggers it's not realistic to expect people to even know what they are let alone act on them. What specific triggers do you think should be catered to and what should be done to cater to them? Sure they are. If the primary thing we're focusing on, the thing that determines whether or not we fucked up, is whether nor not someone was offended that's the end of art. All of it. Gone. Down the tubes. For what? So the most sensitive person in the room who wants us to tiptoe around them doesn't leave? Why? I mean Jerry Seinfeld, by all indications the world's most successful clean comedian, one of the cleanest big guys out there, won't play college campuses because he says they're too PC. This decision that people's feelings of being offended or being disturbed by something that challenges them or brings up something emotional for them are more important than the art that evokes those feelings is not something I'll ever agree with. The religious right has been pulling this stuff for my entire life and long before that and it never leads to anything positive. The reasoning might be different, but it boils down to the same thing: make art tailored to people who are public about taking offense. It's been done and it creates bland crap.I think you've misunderstood the topic here, nobody is talking about being afraid of being exposed to ideas that they disagree with. That has literally absolutely nothing to do with triggers.
But nobody is asking the world to come to a halt, what are you talking about?