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comment by mrsamsa

    What I'm saying is that people often just get mad and instead of accepting the apology and moving on they want to keep being the victim and hold onto it.

I think that happens very rarely though. Normally when people who do the hurting interpret the situation that way, something else entirely is actually going on. Specifically, the person who "apologises" will usually give a non-apology - for example, "I'm sorry for any offence I may have caused". That's cool, but it's not really taking responsibility for that person doing the hurting and saying they'll try to not do it again.

It's like if I step on your foot and you tell me I hurt you. Saying "I apologise for your sore toe" is a really weird way of phrasing it, and it's weird because it's an apology where the person is actively distancing themselves from responsibility. In reality what you want to hear is: "I'm sorry I stepped on your toe and hurt you, I should be more careful in future".

    but I can't know all of those things for everyone and I'm not going to spend my life learning to be PC on everything so I can hopefully not offend someone.

It's not really difficult though (and obviously has nothing at all to do with "being PC"). Just use some common sense and treat people with basic respect and when you fuck up (because it's inevitable given that, as you say, you can't learn everyone's problems) you accept responsibility and try to be better in future.

With the toe stepping example again, I don't get angry when people tell me I hurt their foot. I don't complain about how hard it is to learn all the different body parts hurt that when stepped on. I make basic assumptions that their body will be similar to mine so some things I know are wrong, and when I learn they don't like their toes being stepped on I stop it. I don't complain about it "being PC" because it doesn't happen to be a concern for me.

    Am I mad when someone else doesn't and can't understand because they didn't go through it. Hell no and they shouldn't be either.

Sure, but nobody is mad that everyone doesn't implicitly understand viewpoints and experiences massively different from their own. It's that they hurt someone and instead of understanding why by listening to the person explain, they're too busy reasserting that they didn't intend to.

    People can only hurt you if you let them. Do not take that out of context.

This is just blatantly, demonstrably, and undeniably false though. You can do things to protect yourself, minimise harm, reduce chances of bad things happening, but ultimately you don't have control over what hurts you when it hits you.

And it's got nothing to do with people walking on eggshells. I've never understood that comparison. If someone tells me that it hurts when I punch them in the face, I don't wax philosophic and pontificate on how "pain is all like, in the mind, man" and tell them I don't have time to walk on eggshells around them with their weird demands for me to not break noses.



SadPandaIsSad  ·  3415 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That's all good and all that but you missed the point of my post. The easiest way to not get hurt is to learn to let it go. It's hard. Honestly I'm a pretty empathetic person when something like that happens irl. I have no problem accepting that I hurt another and apologizing for it and actually meaning it. I'm not out there to hurt you and am sorry for it when it happens. At that point there is nothing else u can really do. It's on the other person at this point. They can accept that it happened accidentally and that I'm sorry or not. I'm certainly not going to lose sleep over it. If I did life would be miserable and I'm already melancholy enough.

When something that is that hurtful in someone's past comes up people don't always think or react rationally. Actually a lot of the time there is an instant outburst of anger and frustration and at that point people don't care about an apology because they are hurt and its your fault. This is why removing yourself is so important when someone hurts you with a trigger like that.

Your toe stepping example is not a valid comparison in that it is obvious that stepping on any body party of anyone hurts whereas a hidden trigger that you couldn't know about is not obvious.

Walking on eggshells means going out of your way to make sure you don't offend or hurt someone accidentally. It has nothing to do with pain being a thing of the mind.

We can go on and on all day with this but in the end it's up to the person who was hurt to decide what they are going to do from there. I have not only fulfilled my societal obligation, I have fulfilled my empathy obligation as well. Beyond that there is nothing that can be done short of turning back time. After all, we can't control others. All we can do is control ourselves and our own actions and reactions.

At this point I really don't have anything more to say on the topic as you are bound to disagree with me no matter what I say. Most likely you know someone or you yourself have something in your past you can't let go of so it hits close to home. I know I struggled with it for years. I recommend therapy. It can teach one a lot about how to deal with those situations on ones own end without needing everyone else to bend to ones own discomfort.

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mrsamsa  ·  3415 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Honestly I'm a pretty empathetic person when something like that happens irl. I have no problem accepting that I hurt another and apologizing for it and actually meaning it.

I think you missed the point of my post. I was simply responding to the "it wasn't my intention" idea and how that tied into reactions like kleinbl00's that treat that almost as a 'get out of jail free' card. If you agree that people should apologise, take responsibility, and aim to adjust their behavior for the future, then that's awesome - no disagreement with you, I just don't like the "intention" defence.

    Actually a lot of the time there is an instant outburst of anger and frustration and at that point people don't care about an apology because they are hurt and its your fault.

True but that doesn't mean apologies aren't a good idea (even if they come later when the person has had time to calm down and compose themselves). As my girlfriend often tells me (in unrelated matters): "You can't win but there are better ways to lose". An apology isn't going to magically make them feel better and suddenly start having a calm, 'rational' discussion, but it's often better than them thinking they've just been insulted by someone who doesn't care at all.

    Your toe stepping example is not a valid comparison in that it is obvious that stepping on any body party of anyone hurts whereas a hidden trigger that you couldn't know about is not obvious.

Well that's why in my example I specifically stated that I didn't know that toe stepping would hurt. If that's not clear enough then just change the example to a hidden pain, like suppose someone hurt their back the day before or they have a sunburn under their shirt, and you slap their back when you greet them. Hidden injury, no way of knowing beforehand you'd hurt them, same points apply that I make above.

    Walking on eggshells means going out of your way to make sure you don't offend or hurt someone accidentally. It has nothing to do with pain being a thing of the mind.

I get what the saying means, it just doesn't make sense in this context because it's not like it's difficult or overly demanding to generally avoid hurting people. Most people can get through their life very rarely seriously upsetting someone with the issues discussed here, but like I say, sometimes it'll be inevitable and we learn from it, then move on. Not really walking on eggshells, more like just living your life and not being a dick to people.

    We can go on and on all day with this but in the end it's up to the person who was hurt to decide what they are going to do from there. I have not only fulfilled my societal obligation, I have fulfilled my empathy obligation as well. Beyond that there is nothing that can be done short of turning back time. After all, we can't control others. All we can do is control ourselves and our own actions and reactions.

Sure but they obviously already know this. If the person is like you and apologises, accepts responsibility, and attempts to adjust their behavior in future then there's not really anything more that they need.

    At this point I really don't have anything more to say on the topic as you are bound to disagree with me no matter what I say. Most likely you know someone or you yourself have something in your past you can't let go of so it hits close to home. I know I struggled with it for years. I recommend therapy. It can teach one a lot about how to deal with those situations on ones own end without needing everyone else to bend to ones own discomfort.

Not at all. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences but I come from it mostly from a scientific background, where I've read the research on this and related topics which shows that it's best from most outcome measures to care about the well-being of others.

And just to be clear, I'm not "bound to disagree" at all. I'm willing to be swayed if a good counterpoint could be made but I'm honestly not sure anyone could argue against my original point, which can be summarised as: "Saying you didn't intend to do something doesn't take the pain away, and apologising then avoiding doing the same thing again in the future is a non-dickish way to live your life".

I don't disagree that people who are affected can help minimise harm by taking their own steps to protecting themselves. But similarly we have a responsibility not to go out of our way to harm others when very simple measures can be taken to avoid it. So people with hidden sunburns can take steps to minimise how much it hurts, but similarly after an experience of slapping someone's back and hurting them, I can take that as a learning experience not to just slap people on the back.

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