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comment by thenewgreen
Wow, I have not spent any time on /r/atheism because I don't see the point. Every conversation I have ever had with atheist is just them dogging religion as useless and evil. I don't necessarily disagree with them and that's what confuses them. They don't know how to have a conversation outside of us vs. them. I think there is a value in spirituality but I'm NEVER allowed to talk about that, the conversation always steers back towards religion. I think there is spiritual value in some of the major religions texts that are corrupted by the religious. I spent an hour trying to have a conversation with my brother at Christmas about this but all he kept circling back to was the perils of religion. "You'll find no fight here" was my response, "lets move the conversation forward", but it was impossible.

That 15 girl should come post her thoughts about Sagan's book here, I don't think she'd find any references to sex.

Aside: I received this from my father in law for my daughter for Christmas: http://i.imgur.com/dN8z1.jpg

You may notice that it's written by Callista Gingrich. The main character is an Elephant named Ellis that is learning what makes America great. Indoctrination for my 1 year old... no thanks, I'll pass. He's a great guy but man is he a devout GOP'er.





kleinbl00  ·  4717 days ago  ·  link  ·  
One of my good friends is a pastor. Another was a pastor and youth group leader for many years. I think that's because I figured out something about myself when I was about 25:

I am a fundamentally faithless individual.

Thing is, I recognize that "faith" isn't a detriment. It provides solace and strength to many billions of people. It is neither good nor bad; "faith" is that thing that makes us stick together when we shouldn't. One might argue that "faith" is at the core of being human.

So when I say that "I am a fundamentally faithless individual" it is not a brag. There have been many times in my life when having "faith" would have been greatly beneficial. There have been many times in my life when some sort of "faith" would have made my life much easier. But there it is - I have none.

Part of the problem with the modern atheist movement is that they aren't "faithless." They're anti-faith. They're swapping one dogma for another without really considering what we draw from religion and what we should keep. Most of their arguments are sound, are justified and make a lot of sense... but those three qualities rarely apply to the human psyche.

So I interact with the faithful and tell them if they want to pray for me I'll be flattered, but that I can't do the same for them because I just don't have the plumbing.

I dated a girl who was militantly anti-dairy because she used to work in a pizzeria and then discovered she was lactose intolerant. She wasn't regretful; she was pissed off at everything and everyone from the cow to the milkman. It wasn't attractive.

Some people are allergic to dairy products. Some are allergic to faith. How you handle that allergy says a lot about who you are.

thenewgreen  ·  4384 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Just re-read this. From your response it occurs to me for the first time that "faith" is potentially something that has been biologically selected for. It is something that can be beneficial. Could it be that faith is a product of evolution? It's something we've cultivated in order to protect ourselves and the pack.

    that thing that makes us stick together when we shouldn't
b_b  ·  4716 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Part of the problem with the modern atheist movement is that they aren't "faithless." They're anti-faith.

I agree wholeheartedly. These ostensibly atheist books get published every year that are an expose of how shitty religion is, and then they use that as an argument for atheism, which is fairly akin to the opposite end of the spectrum where Creationists say we don't know everything about evolution therefore a Creator made the universe. I appreciate a good book about the faults of religion, if only from a historical perspective, because faults in choice A isn't an argument for choice B in a complex world.

I am a professed atheist, and if I were to write a text on the subject, it wouldn't focus on any religion in any disparaging way. Rather, it would be a philosophical text about how to reconcile morality and ethics in a world where none exist a priori (but then I would remember that Sartre and Russell already did that and were way smarter than me).

Atheism shouldn't be about soapboxing. It is, like you say, the absence of faith. I was a pissed of atheist kid, but that comes from a place of frustration at what I saw as stupidity or willful ignorance by my peers. These people just need to recognize that happiness is internal, and their lives wouldn't be any better if every church went out of business tomorrow. Education and life experience are what pissed off kids need, but that only comes with time; hence, not much middle-aged angst.

thenewgreen  ·  4716 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Some people are allergic to dairy products. Some are allergic to faith. How you handle that allergy says a lot about who you are. -I like this analogy and I agree that it says a lot about "who you are". I have never felt envious of someones faith, I find comfort in knowing that I don't know and that anything is possible. I find a great deal of comfort in admitting I have no friggin' clue. I guess that makes me an agnostic. Still, I enjoy it when someone says grace at dinner etc. because when the right person does it and it comes from a sincere place, it can be like poetry. It allows people to say things to one another that they otherwise don't feel comfortable saying.
b_b  ·  4716 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I consider myself an atheist, but mostly because I am uncomfortable with the agnostic moniker, because I think it gives too much credit to some silly ideas. However, I recently came across the idea of ignosticism. I don't know too much about it yet, as I've just began to read, but check out the Wikipedia page. Intriguing as a "religious" philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

thenewgreen  ·  4716 days ago  ·  link  ·  
It doesn't have much there but still, this is a good start: The view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of god can be meaningfully discussed
d_e_solomon  ·  4717 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Yeah, I don't really read r/atheism either, but Rebecca Watson's article was submitted to r/truereddit as well. I agree with you on the need for spirituality even if the belief isn't there. For whatever reason, humans seem to have a need for some form of ritual togetherness.

My wife is in graphic design/illustration. She's been verboten from illustrating children's books as she tends to illustrate everything as creepy or will make political propaganda :D

thenewgreen  ·  4717 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I'm sure your wife's version would be far more entertaining :)

As for spirituality, I once took a year long bible study course because I thought to myself, "I need to know what all the fuss is about". I played the devils advocate for 12 months and the others in the class loved it. They were very accepting and courteous and appreciated having their beliefs challenged. At the end of the course the Pastor that led it asked me what I thought of Christ? My response was that after studying the bible and the new testament in general, I had concluded that "there are many paths to God (or enlightenment)", not just Christ. She really surprised me with her response, she said "I don't disagree with you, the key is to pick one of the paths". -I think she is right. It's like Mr. Miyagi said, "Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later, get squish just like grape".

Choose a path.

d_e_solomon  ·  4717 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I grew up with 12 years of Catholic school. I once had a religion teacher confide in me that he enjoyed the unbelievers in his class more as they understood his point and his argument better than most of the believers.

I actually really enjoyed listening to the discussions between the guy who auctioned off going to church for a year on ebay and the buying church. It was interesting listening to both sides understand each other better. I'll have to dig that one up at some point.

thenewgreen  ·  4717 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I'd like to see that discussion, for sure. Thanks.

An FYI, I went to Catholic school too. I spent years in theology classes and left feeling like I knew next to nothing about christianity. I hated theology class and barely passed all of them. I learned a lot by voluntarily partaking in that bible study. What I learned was that the christians (or any religious person) that I liked were the ones that admitted that they didn't know squat but liked the teachings of Christ. The ones that are scary are the ones that have it all figured out and know unequivocally that they are saved and you are damned. Those people (from any religion) are to be feared.

d_e_solomon  ·  4717 days ago  ·  link  ·  
You may find reading about the Jesus Seminar interesting. It's definitely an interesting take on Jesus and biblical study. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

My religion classes in high school were mixed. I really enjoyed class on scripture and social justice while I didn't particularly like sacrament. It more had to do with the teachers than the material in all honesty.