I think you and JTHipster made a crucial mistake at this point in your argument that spoiled the rest of your discussion: you both settled on the assumption that Monoprice's products must be short lived "consumables" instead of durable goods because they're cheap, that a $14 gaming mouse will only last one year while a $100 mouse will last at least six. In my original post I made the point that this is precisely the "dirty secret" which Monoprice has busted open. Later in your argument you challenged JT to cite sources and numbers for his argument, and you get a big smack on the hand with a wooden spoon for that, for you haven't done so either. I haven't been able to find MTTF figures for any of Monoprice's products, yet, and googling for "Logitech MX Revolution MTTF" didn't yield anything either. If you can't find equivalent numbers yourself then I challenge you to withdraw your statement. Remember, "anecdotes do not equal data"--even if your personal experience is that they're shit, it's still not the kind of numbers and facts that you were demanding from JT. What I have found, however, are a large number of reviews and customer testimonials for Monoprice products that attest to durability and solid construction. For example: http://www.headphoneinfo.com/content/monoprice-mhp-839-revie...
"Probably one of the best things that can be said about the MHP-839s is that they offer a level of durability not found on headphones in their price range." http://gizmodo.com/5988435/monoprice-mhd-action-cam-review-n...
"We dropped and kicked around the cam a bunch to test durability. It occasionally decided to not respond to the record button afterwords, but it always recovered and seemed fine overall." & "We submerged it completely in water while recording, and it came out unscathed, footage intact." http://www.bestcovery.com/best-digital-optical-audio-cable-t...
"The quality construction of the Monoprice toslink cable is what sets it apart from the competition; the thick jacket ensures durability from extended use, the gold-plated ferrule is corrosion resistant, and the connectors are made from a durable metal." http://emg-zine.com/item.php?id=851
"The tablet itself is made of strong plastic, feels and looks sturdy and the stylus seems just as strong as its Wacom counterpart." Monoprice's products haven't stood the test of time because there hasn't been that much time, but what if they last as long or almost as long? If a $14 mouse lasts nearly as long as a $100 mouse, then what's the other $86 for? Your problem with landfill matter is a valid one, but I'm disappointed that neither of you tackled the issue of recycling as much as you should have. Lowes and Best Buy now have recycling bins right inside their front doors for old electronics and problem items such as batteries and mercury-containing CFLs. If we have too many mice going into landfills it does not mean we have a problem with cheap mice, it means we need to make it easier to recycle them. The electronics recycling industry is big and it can stand to get even bigger and more efficient. If you argue that it is better to buy the more durable (conflated with "expensive") product because of longevity, repairability, reusability and resale value, then are you not arguing that you should have bought a $200 mouse, or a $300 mouse, or one made from a solid block of machined aluminum? (Got my Apple Magic Trackpad right here, bro.) No, of course not, because you valued more than just one factor. Purpose, aesthetics, functionality, compatibility, adaptability, ergonomics. Maybe you own a Telefunken U 47 that your granddad bought in 1960 and it still works, but only because a 1959 U 47 came with PVC membranes that shriveled with age. This is part of the dirty little secret: price does not predict durability or quality. If only I'd known that when I bought my Bose Triports. I could'a had a Sennheiser. Or I could'a had a Monoprice 8323, which are uglier but just as good and just as durable as Triports for a sixth of the price. Now please don't get distracted by arguing over which headphones sound the best, because I'm neither a musician nor an audiophile, and HERE COMES THE REAL ARGUMENT: the mythical "One True Anti-Apple" from my post is the company that doesn't compete on quality because quality has been eliminated as a factor. What the OTAA--and I think Monoprice is headed in the direction of being the OTAA--competes on is adaptability to the market. I'm not a musician nor audiophile, so I don't care as much about fidelity but I do care about comfort and durability, and I don't want to have to pay hundreds of dollars for sound fidelity in order to get basic, competent build quality. I want those two factors to be decoupled so I can pay for what I want without having to pay for things I don't want or that my tin ears can't even distinguish. Ikea furniture is not a concession to poverty at the expense of landfill space. I own two Ikea lounge chairs and a bookshelf that are all in excellent condition after eight years and four moves. They are excellent quality for the purposes I put them to, and one of those unexpected purposes was a 400lb lady who decided to sit on them one day. It tipped her out, but it didn't break. I hope that Monoprice continues to focus on breaking the assumption that cheap = nasty. I think that it's possible to make durable, long lasting products inexpensively, and that what we call "quality" ought to move past basic manufacturing competence and into subjective criteria such as "does my garage band need to sound like the Royal Philharmonic right now, or does it not really matter if our highs and lows get a bit compressed?" Why pay for 18-22khz if you're listening to punk?
I think you can piss up a rope. I own the mouse in question and have bought the mice in question that monoprice sells. In my own empirical analysis, I have a 100% correlation. Me and JTHipster agreed on these terms of discussion because we both have experience with at least part of the discussion. You, on the other hand, need to come in with your cock swinging about MTBF. Riddle me this - how is it that I'm not allowed to speak from my experience but you're allowed to invalidate what I have to say by asserting "I can't google it?" Logitech's warranty is 36 months. Monoprice's is one. Correlation does not imply causation but it sure as fuck implies more than "I can't google it therefore you're wrong." They don't. I suggest you look up what "anecdotal evidence" means. You'll find that it means "I heard a story that." Now go look up "empirical evidence." I haven't "heard a story that" monoprice's electronics are shit. I have evaluated monoprice's electronics to be shit through my own professional experience as a former audiovisual consultant that helped develop products for Rane, Mackie, Biamp, Symetrix, SLS, DBX and others. Keep lecturing, shithead. By you. Not by me. I didn't say "go buy a Rolls Royce" and neither did JT. He said "Go buy a Toyota" and I said "Yeah, because Yugos fall apart." | (Got my Apple Magic Trackpad right here, bro.)| Call me "bro" again. | If only I'd known that when I bought my Bose Triports.| So you buy Bose and Monoprice and consider yourself an expert? You are completely fucking insane. You've done exactly jack shit to back this up but you feel A-OK lecturing me for using personal experience in an argument with someone else. And that's pretty much what your argument boils down to: "You didn't have this argument with me on my terms using my data, therefore everything you said is invalid. Also, I respect no one." And that's why you're ignored now.I think you and JTHipster made a crucial mistake at this point in your argument that spoiled the rest of your discussion: you both settled on the assumption that Monoprice's products must be short lived "consumables" instead of durable goods because they're cheap, that a $14 gaming mouse will only last one year while a $100 mouse will last at least six.
Monoprice's products haven't stood the test of time because there hasn't been that much time, but what if they last as long or almost as long?
Your problem with landfill matter is a valid one, but I'm disappointed that neither of you tackled the issue of recycling as much as you should have.
If you argue that it is better to buy the more durable (conflated with "expensive")
quality has been eliminated as a factor
I'm going to make another reply. I was winded and confused that you got so emotional, but maybe I was "cock swinging" and didn't realize it. I'll try to address the arguments as dispassionately as I can, and if I fuck up at that task then it's my own fault, I only hope someone can point out to me where and how. [...] I don't have direct access to the details of your empirical experience, only what you chose to divulge. As you pointed out, it's "I heard a story that..." I don't disrespect your perspective, but every product ever made always has at least one dissatisfied customer, so I have to turn to data. If I never bought anything that had at least one 1-star review on Amazon, I wouldn't buy very much from Amazon. Yes, you and JTHipster appear to have a common experience. Okay, two data points. You've convinced me: Monoprice mice are shit. I hope that Monoprice gets their act together re: mice, because so many of their other products have impressed both me and many others, which is what I was incompetently attempting to show with those links. No problem, you're an expert in this field. You've only described it as "shit" though, but it's difficult for me and probably everyone else to translate "shit" to something specific. Wear and tear? Sound fidelity? And to what degree? I won't. It was an inept attempt at rhetorical flair. However, while Apple has presently used its buying power to monopsonize equipment for carving chassis out of aluminum blocks, in the future that manufacturing equipment will become both cheaper and more common, and products that are made this way--with more rigidity and fewer seams, screws and wearable parts--will become more common and inexpensive. They will be both cheap and more durable than equivalent designs that use welds and screws. I acted improperly. However, your argument with JT followed from a post that I wrote and posted on my own G+ account. Clearly, I assumed too much.In my own empirical analysis, I have a 100% correlation. Me and JTHipster agreed on these terms of discussion because we both have experience with at least part of the discussion.
how is it that I'm not allowed to speak from my experience but you're allowed to invalidate what I have to say by asserting "I can't google it?"
I have evaluated monoprice's electronics to be shit through my own professional experience as a former audiovisual consultant that helped develop products for Rane, Mackie, Biamp, Symetrix, SLS, DBX and others.
Call me "bro" again.
but you feel A-OK lecturing me for using personal experience in an argument with someone else.
Okay, please calm down. Did I get you at the wrong time? Did I strike the wrong tone? I think I must have fouled up in some way that I'm too stupid to see, and I apologize. I've been following you on Hubski because I thought you were intelligent and level headed, and I still think you are, but I believe that something I said struck you the wrong way. I must have gone too personal. Was it "anecdotes are not data"? I'm not sure, but you just had a lively exchange with JT and I thought there were things that were missed, and that's what I was bringing up. If you have actually ignored me then you won't see this, in which case I'm sad.I think you can piss up a rope.
need to come in with your cock swinging
Keep lecturing, shithead.
Call me "bro" again.
You are completely fucking insane.
You've done exactly jack shit
And that's why you're ignored now.
| If you can't find equivalent numbers yourself then I challenge you to withdraw your statement.| (...so here's not one, not two, not three, but FOUR anecdotes to prove you wrong) | I'm disappointed that neither of you tackled the issue of recycling as much as you should have.| (WTF) (but do please take me seriously) You chose to talk down to me because you think you're superior, you chose to lecture me because you think you know better, and you chose to attempt to undercut my arguments by demonstrating you don't understand debate while also being condescending as fuck. I think you decided I was in a cozy little box where you could look down at me and feel superior and I'm here to make you regret that. If you truly thought I was "intelligent and level-headed" you wouldn't talk to me like I was a retarded fourteen-year-old. No, you said "you guys are missing the important issue which is defined by me on my terms using my data because you're both wrong and also not worthy of respect. Headphones." It doesn't work like that. I get to browse back to see if I can see anything anywhere that might have led you to completely gloss over everything I said while also acting like me and JT hadn't had four or five thousand words' worth of legit discussion. Nope. No idea where you get off. One does not begin a "friendly debate" by discounting everything a person says in smarmy tones. Not unless one wants to get curbsmiled.I think you and JTHipster made a crucial mistake at this point in your argument
you get a big smack on the hand with a wooden spoon for that,
Remember, "anecdotes do not equal data"
(Got my Apple Magic Trackpad right here, bro.)
Now please don't get distracted by arguing over which headphones sound the best,
Quality has been eliminated as a factor.
I think I must have fouled up in some way that I'm too stupid to see, and I apologize.
I've been following you on Hubski because I thought you were intelligent and level headed, and I still think you are, but I believe that something I said struck you the wrong way.
you just had a lively exchange with JT and I thought there were things that were missed, and that's what I was bringing up.
If you have actually ignored me then you won't see this, in which case I'm sad.
Earlier, I thought you were a Cluster B having a temper-tantrum in the ladies room. Then you went and explained it in another Hubski thread, and I read your "On Aggression" plus the links. I'd already read Konrad's version, so I was, like, "aw, fuck." You got me. I treated you under the assumption you had a genuine nervous breakdown, call it "controlled politeness", but I flatter myself. I don't have a problem with how you do what you do. I've been reamed much harder before, and I know that I have to take it. I also don't care how this goes from now on, and I don't care if you don't reply, even as--at the same time--I can't deny that I wish you would, because I'm writing this cuz I want to. Human weakness. Hope you don't mind a loosened tongue, though. So you have a reading comprehension problem. I can understand. Here's the opening sentence of my post: "Monoprice--the seller of cheap cables and accessories--might be turning into the One True Anti-Apple." Might. It would be nice if they did. But what's wrong with Coby and GPX? Oh, I know, it doesn't hold up to your standards, even if it holds up to the standards of everyone who isn't a prima donna. But I guess I wasn't literate enough to write it in such a way that you'd understand, and it's not your fault that you took it the way you did. No problem: live and learn, here's what I meant: "It would be nice if someone made things that satisfied tin-eared, half-blind pig fuckers like me in a way that would last longer than 12 months, without charging me for some pansy-ass quality I don't even give a damn about. It would also be nice if, after recognizing the fact that I can't tell the difference between Brand X and Angels Singing, someone was to make [THINGS] that don't fall apart after 12 months and otherwise cut their prices because they don't pretend to satisfy professional audio engineers, nor waste money on the marketing effort." Of course I don't take this on faith. I didn't even write the goddamn post until after I personally tried their gear and then spent hours checking reviews that practically jizzed over how durable it was. That was the stuff I linked to in the earlier comment, but that you didn't bother to address, by the way. Because you said this: And no, waffling on about the declining market in mixers is not the same. If the market decides that $80 mixers are good enough and it puts your favourite vendors out of business then it sucks to be you. We do not exist to subsidize your virgin ears. If your dollar isn't enough to keep Mackie in business then maybe Mackie doesn't deserve to be in business. I'm sorry, I didn't see a MTBF number there, only a number inflated by higher prices. Well shit, I can offer a 36 month warranty on something that costs $5 to make and sells for $100. Maybe the entire scheme is funded by gullible jackasses who think price somehow correlates to build quality. No shit. So far the only data-point I have on Monoprice mice is that they can't take 12 months in the posession of someone who exercises "coherent rage." Boy, I can take that to the bank. Maybe I'm looking to save $86 on a mouse that I won't attempt to shove up my own ass. Oh, so you're also a blowhard. Kettle, meet pot. Yes, because I'm an expert in what works for me. My Triports are still working. I have also owned Sony, Shure, Sennheiser, and a dozen other brands I forgot how to spell. I checked forums, I talked to friends, I tried them all, compared side-by-side, and couldn't tell the difference. After a while I came to realize that my ears aren't carved out of gold and that I'll give a different and conflicting answer to the Pepsi Challenge every goddamn time I take it. I got pissed off at both the idea that I'm supposed to want something I can't discern, and the idea that I have to pay for it. Which was in response to "quality has been eliminated as a factor." So riddle me this, Spiderman, what if build quality was eliminated as a factor? I've used mice cheaper than Monoprice's for years because I don't yank the shit out of them. Maybe Logitech has cornered the market for controlled rage boys, but I clearly haven't got your problem. Grow up. I'm talking down to you because you did behave like a retarded fourteen-year-old who didn't read the fucking OC and decided to spin-off on the only subset you knew anything about. Some data that was. Oh gosh, I shoudln't buy their mice because I don't understand their economics, so sez a git who hasn't even sampled a whole percent of their range. Of course, I could be wrong, but now that I know your schtick, it's been fun to clash horns. Nothing personal.I think you can piss up a rope. I own the mouse in question and have bought the mice in question that monoprice sells. In my own empirical analysis, I have a 100% correlation. Me and JTHipster agreed on these terms of discussion because we both have experience with at least part of the discussion.
Riddle me this - how is it that I'm not allowed to speak from my experience but you're allowed to invalidate what I have to say by asserting "I can't google it?"
Use numbers and links.
Logitech's warranty is 36 months. Monoprice's is one.
Correlation does not imply causation
I haven't "heard a story that" monoprice's electronics are shit. I have evaluated monoprice's electronics to be shit through my own professional experience as a former audiovisual consultant that helped develop products for Rane, Mackie, Biamp, Symetrix, SLS, DBX and others.
Keep lecturing, shithead.
So you buy Bose and Monoprice and consider yourself an expert?
You are completely fucking insane.
You've done exactly jack shit to back this up but you feel A-OK lecturing me for using personal experience in an argument with someone else.