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comment by user92
user92  ·  4273 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Climate change and Phoenix

I don't doubt any global warming claims at all. I suppose I'm struggling to come to terms with how The Authorities (city planners, engineers, etc.) can just stand by while this happens. Or are they just standing by? But I suppose maybe that's just what humans do? Maybe these huge cities will ultimately be testament not to our ingenuity, but to our lack of foresight.





kleinbl00  ·  4273 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I suppose I'm struggling to come to terms with how The Authorities (city planners, engineers, etc.) can just stand by while this happens.

A fair question. The Salon article points to the answer:

"The Authorities" think they have a water SUPPLY problem, rather than a water DEMAND problem.

It's like this: ecosystems are fragile and do not respond well to overload. Any city is an overload for the ecosystem, it just depends on how much of an overload. You can fix that overload one of two ways: you can decrease the demand on it or you can increase the raw inputs. And, as our understanding of "ecosystems" isn't yet half a century old, our attempts at the latter are quixotic at best.

Yeah, you can "conserve water." The problem is that in order to seriously affect change, we're talking "Stillsuits on Arakkis" water conservation, not "only water your lawn on odd-numbered dates" water conservation. Consider Brazil - they're mostly rainforest but they're running out of water. They're taking baby steps that, let's be honest, would go over like a fart in church in Arizona. After all, we're busy fighting low-flow toilets and fluorescent bulbs in the name of "liberty."

Don't get me wrong: Change can be made. It has to be wanted and fought for by everyone, though. Bill Mollison famously restored some australian town or other from total collapse through permaculture. He can't visit it, though, because they want to string him up for planting hawthornes, which are spikey and mean enough that their thorns can puncture tires (they also don't take a lot of water and are great "guild" starters). So - their town was saved from oblivion through greening the desert, but they want to kill the guy who did it because his methods were rough on their tires.

This is Arizona we're talking about. They don't like black people, don't like Mexicans, don't like Daylight Savings and, by the way, are experiencing their greatest population growth from aging Boomers retiring away from the snow. This is a population that you can barely get to recycle their aluminum cans. You think they're going to put up with effective (but radical) water conservation? A lot of them don't even "believe" in "anthropocentric global warming."

The United States didn't even sign the Kyoto Protocol. Which doesn't matter any more, because it expired Dec 31 2012. Ask any climatologist and they'll say that it's too late to do anything but strap in. We're well past the tipping point and the only question left to ask is "how bad is it going to be."

I would argue that if you're in Phoenix, it's going to be excessively fucking bad. Same with Albuquerque. Same with Los Angeles. Same with Salt Lake City. Same with Vegas. Same with Kansas City. Same with Tulsa. It's going to look like Nogales halfway through Nebraska by the time we're all dead but it will have happened so slowly that nobody will have bothered to do anything. Kind of like all the dry, dead farms up in the San Joaquin - all the water that grows crops can't because it's too busy watering lawns in Pasadena.

user92  ·  4273 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I sort of feel like strapping in is probably the only real option left. So much would have to change culturally to soften the blow but cultural changes are almost impossible within a generation. I just try to install values in my children and hope for the best, but I've all but given up hope for changing my culture. I mean, it's not like I've got it all figured out either. I live in the DC area and I think we're going to have our own set of challenges.

kleinbl00  ·  4273 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I recommend "Eaarth" by Bill McKibben and "The Great Disruption" by Paul Gilding.

user92  ·  4273 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Thanks for these resources. The permaculture thing really appeals to me.

b_b  ·  4273 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yes, there are some major companies that have designs on building a pipeline form the Great Lakes to the SW. That's how a lot of people want to 'solve' this problem. "We've created an environment disaster. Hmmm. How do we engineer a solution? Wait, I know. Let's create an environmental disaster bigger than we could've ever dreamed!" The simplest solution for the good people of Arizona is to look for jobs in other, more sustainable, locations ASAP. Because eventually they are going to face a mass exodus the likes of which will make the exodus from places like Detroit, Buffalo, and Cleveland look like a dress rehearsal. I sound alarmist, but I think I'm right. What is the other possible result? Phoenix is a metropolis in a place not equipped to have a tenth of its population long term. The Nation has described the looming disaster as The Greatest Water Crisis in the History of Civilization, and they are convinced they aren't being hyperbolic. The problem is people think, "This is America. We won't run out of anything, ever." The very basic law of conservation of mass says they are wrong. My advice, as an outsider who is not connected to the place in any way so its east for me to say, is get out. Now. There is no way to make water on a scale large enough to support a metropolis.

user92  ·  4273 days ago  ·  link  ·  

A pipeline from the Great Lakes sounds like one of the worst possible things you could do.

b_b  ·  4273 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It absolutely is. They would already be doing it if it weren't for treaties with Canada that bar such activity. MI, WI, MN or any of the other states couldn't do a thing to stop it, because that would be considered regulating interstate commerce. Only the EPA could stop it. The EPA is impotent, and we all know that we will scrap a treaty in a heartbeat if we think its damaging business. So, this is a very real possibility at some point in the future, a sad and scary possibility, but a real one nonetheless.