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comment by user-inactivated
user-inactivated  ·  4299 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Is the world fundamentally better off because of science and technology

Yep. For every negative effect of a technological advance, there are dozens of positives.





khaaan  ·  4298 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Is the planet fundamentaly better off with people in it?

akkartik  ·  4296 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Our nature is to fuck things up, often without realizing it. Our challenge is to get over our nature.

The road is long, the destination uncertain, and missteps inevitable. But fortunately the universe is vast and tolerant of our fumbling attempts.

No point in giving up. There's nothing we can do to truly fuck things up except for ourselves. Might as well play the game.

b_b  ·  4296 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Our nature is to fuck things up...

Do you mean this in the sense that during our attempt to solve one problem, we often create secondary issues. If so, I would say that it is our nature to be problem solvers, but that we often lack the foresight or insight to see the complexity of a given problem.

akkartik  ·  4296 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yeah, there's incompetence and malice, and a spectrum of benign neglect in between. Sometimes we have good intentions but lack foresight. Sometimes we want something and don't care about consequences. The world becomes an externality to our desires. Sometimes we think we don't care about the consequences, but if our foresight were improved we'd realize we should care.

b_b  ·  4296 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Let's consider one of the largest secondary problems we currently face: Global warming. Two of the main drivers of global warming are methane from large farms and carbon dioxide from burning of organic fuels. Today, we may think of greed as the primary motivating factor that can explain why it is so hard to find consensus solutions to global warming. But the problem's roots (both for methane and CO2) result from the same basic place, which is the improvement of the human condition. I don't think it was possible, in principle, to have predicted global warming in the early days of the industrial revolution. Further, I think that ascribing to malice that which can be ascribed to ignorance is counter productive and dangerous. Foresight is often underutilized, I agree, but it is at least as often unavailable, as some phenomena can only be observed empirically and cannot be predicted.

akkartik  ·  4296 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think we're in vehement agreement. It might not be obvious, though. Perhaps my labels are not clear. Incompetence is when you do something bad but didn't realize it at the time. Malice is when you realized it but didn't care.

You're right that malice often starts out as incompetence. At first we didn't know that methane and CO2 could be bad. That was ignorance or incompetence. Then we knew, but it was too hard/unprofitable to change the way things were done. That's not ignorance, now that's malice. Standing by can be as bad as actively doing harm oneself. If we don't believe that then we'll be utterly doomed by tragedies of the commons.

    Foresight is often underutilized, I agree, but it is at least as often unavailable, as some phenomena can only be observed empirically and cannot be predicted.

Definitely. Even if we eliminated all malice (ha!), incompetence is often unavoidable. Which is why it's a good thing that the universe is vast and we have lots of opportunity to recover from missteps.

b_b  ·  4296 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Which is why it's a good thing that the universe is vast and we have lots of opportunity to recover from missteps.

Yes, fortunately, for reasons of mathematical necessity, we live in a world dominated by negative feedback. The worst case scenario for global warming is that it creates a positive feedback loop when the warming climate starts to release gas trapped in the oceans and tundras. There, we might find out what its like to live in an alternate stability. Let's hope not. And in the meantime vote for candidates that understand that how we got here is less important than how we move forward.

thenewgreen  ·  4299 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think the "world" is a broad term. If the question was relegated to "me", then I think it is a more obvious "yes". The "world" could mean our ecology, ecosystem and all of earth in general. The answer may not be so easy for me given this.

user-inactivated  ·  4299 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oh, huh. Earth isn't better off, I guess. Didn't really think about that interpretation.

khaaan  ·  4298 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I gues world means people and planet means earth / ecosystem although for some reason we dont se ourselvs as fundamentaly involved with our parent Rock

thenewgreen  ·  4299 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it. As George Carlin so eloquently put it "The planet is fine, people are fucked"