Tipping is the stupidest thing ever. I hate it so much. I do it, but seriously - fuck tipping.
Yeah, I definitely thought about that scene when I read Kleinbl00's comment. Very Mr. Pinkish.
That was needlessly offensive. Once more, with feeling: More than that, I tip generously. I'm not interfering with other people's business and causing a scene over a dollar - I'm lodging an academic objection to an institution I take exception to. It's not at all related, it's just that you lack the attention span to see the difference.Tipping is the stupidest thing ever. I hate it so much. I do it, but seriously - fuck tipping.
Yeah, it's really shocking that somehow your 3 sentences about hating tipping didn't get the academic response they called for. Fuck that "you lack the attention span" shit- there is no way to tell from your post that you don't just think tipping is dumb because you wanna save a buck. If you want people to think you have an intelligent interest in the discourse then post something intelligent.
It's funny to me, how you have posted almost exactly 3 sentences in these comments. That's not even close to true of kleinbl00. Just sayin'...
I think StephenBuckley has a point though. Kleinbl00 didn't really enunciate his stance in his post very well, and it made it sound like he only tipped because he had to (with the implication that he doesn't tip very well either). If you want an academic and intelligent discussion about something, you really ought to post something beyond "It's stupid, I hate it, fuck that".
>> you really ought to post something beyond "It's stupid, I hate it, fuck that" You should have a look at who has commented on this discussion, how much, and when. I suspect some people around here are just getting their panties in a bunch when someone says "fuck". But I could be wrong about that, maybe there is a reason for the knee-jerk hostility towards kleinbl00. He has claimed repeatedly that he tips, and tips well.
Well from this thread, it seems like kleinbl00 was being hostile. I thought his originally comment didn't appear very thoughtful (again the "It's stupid, I hate it, fuck that" thing), and Velociraptor posted a video that I thought was meant to be humorous. I understand that kleinbl00 would take offense to that, since the person he is being equated to is cast in a bad light, but he responds with: It's just that "That's stupid, I hate it, fuck that" isn't an academic objection. And we don't lack the attention span to see the difference, just that kleinbl00 didn't take the time to actually make a stance and really differentiate himself. I don't know what you were referring to about who has commented on this discussion, how much, etc. Maybe I'm just missing something.I'm not interfering with other people's business and causing a scene over a dollar - I'm lodging an academic objection to an institution I take exception to. It's not at all related, it's just that you lack the attention span to see the difference.
Really? You can't browse the discussion and see all those paragraphs he has written? Do you expect him to repeat himself because you can't be bothered to scroll down a little?
Hey, mind taking a step back a little? I'm not really for arguing on the internet. No, I can browse the discussion and I don't expect him to repeat himself. Now, mind explaining what you want me to look for or do you just want to keep trying to pick a fight?
Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but it is obvious that kleinbl00 has written a lot of words on this thread - thoughtful words, wherein he explains several times that it's NOT because he's cheap. SB comes in and says (without looking at the discussion, apparently) that he "ought to post something beyond "it's stupid, I hate it"". (which he HAD ALREADY DONE). Seems clear to me that SB is the one who is not contributing to this discussion - the very thing he's accused KB of (in addition to telling him "not to be a dick about it"). I called him on it, and you're defending him - you think he had a point, I guess, because KB was being mean or something. I guess maybe you missed the meanness in what SB said, and his link. Did I miss anything?
Right, and we get his point now. I just think he really should have made an effort to do that in his first post, because that sort of comment garners this sort of response.
At the time SB chimed in, KB had already written several long paragraphs, and there were fewer than a dozen comments total, then - so it wasn't difficult to see who was shotgun-commenting and who was not. But I see your point, and it seems that there is also deeper context between commenters here, which I'm not aware of - some bad blood or something. Sorry to have come across as confrontational. Writing in haste; I should have tempered my words a little better. Cheers.
kleinbl00, I didn't mean to offend you. I was just sharing a clip regarding an opinion on tipping. Why are you so angry kleinbl00? Did your parents not give you the attention you deserved as a child? Is it because you feel alone, even when you’re with your friends? Are you sexually frustrated? After all, “klein” is German for “small.” On that note, please ignore me.
Hey, I thought the video you posted was funny, but this goes too far. Those attacks on kleinbl00 were just unnecessary.
Growing up with a mom who (still!) is a server, I've been fortunate she's a great one. If she were not a good though... my family would be screwed. Sure, my dad (a chef!) makes a decent amount of money, but my mom's tips account for most of our income. I'm glad she can make so much, but I hate that just a few rude tables or a slow week could completely screw her and my family over. It has it's benefits, but for all the servers out there, it certainly isn't it worth it.
And, as someone who had the privilege of eating at 5-star restaurants (while suffering through the 2nd worst girlfriend in the world) I've experienced positively stellar service. I've left $40 tips where I truly felt my server had earned every penny. But those occasions are rare. Service is a skill. If you get good at it you earn more money. What bugs me deeply is that that skill has to be evaluated on a minute-by-minute basis by inexpert people who have insight into only a small fraction of that person's work experience instead of, say, the manager who can watch turnover, can watch interpersonal skills, can evaluate which wait staff benefits her restaurant the most. Stewardesses don't work for tips. Why should servers?
The standard tipping paradigm doesn't bother me so much when it's service to the table. It is in many ways a stupid system that yields better service in the aggregate. I've waited tables and in general servers actively try to please the customer and usually do a great job with their poker face when it comes to small checks. But I know what it's like to instantly view customers as pay-grades...our brains can't turn off that association. As a one-top who used to wait I definitely add margin to my low checks. What bothers me is the proliferation of tip jars that are showing up everywhere were no services are being provided. I mean, it's not a huge deal and and as a guy that doesn't use a man bag I often welcome the opportunity to dump a fistful of coin change in a receptacle other than my front pocket, but still....I'm basically tipping you for putting my money in the register?
My uncle once related a story to me of a visit to Europe where, high up in the Alps, they ended up late at night at an Inn that had been in business for centuries. Their waiter was in his 70s, took down the orders of 8 people in another language without writing a thing down, made recommendations and accommodations, then grew indignant when they attempted to tip him. He did his job as a professional, as his father had before him, because that's what he did, and he was compensated fairly for his skill. To imply that somehow he would give better or worse service to someone depending on how much petty cash they had given him was, to him, an affront to his professionalism. The propagating tip jars are absolutely a big part of the problem - we're taking our expression of thankfulness for services well-rendered and turning it into a toll. Put your prices on the menu and charge me for it. Service is a big damn part of Yelp reviews anyway so if your service sucks I'm not going to care whether I tipped or not. It's time for the whole system to go.
There is no doubt that tipping can lead to some really awkward and often unintentionally insulting moments. Usually, this occurs in areas outside of waiting tables. For example, recently I had a repair man come and fix our dryer. While he was there he did some routine maintenance on our washer, for free. As he left, I tipped him and it confused him and I think it made him feel bad. He had genuinely done something nice for me because we had a good report and he didn't expect anything in return. My tip ruined all of that. I wasn't sure what the protocol was though. Why? Because everyone and their uncle expects a tip these days. If you go get ice cream, there's a tip jar, if you get coffee... a tip jar. It's everywhere these days. My thinking on this is changing the more I consider it. I would almost rather that a restaurant folded 20% in to their prices and paid the servers more, just for the ancillary effects it would have on other situations, like the "repair man".
Have I recommended Predictably Irrational yet? Ariely spends a chapter on money and friendship, and outlines how offended you would be if your in-laws tried to pay you for hosting Thanksgiving dinner. He also relates a story of the California Bar Association and their failure to get their members to give discounts to the elderly... shortly before having no difficulties at all getting their members to do pro bono work for the elderly. Even those Freakonomics twits talk about the daycare that charged a fee for late pickups to discourage them and ended up increasing late pickups. Ariely breaks this down as a mismatch between expectations - we expect one thing of paying relationships and another of friendships. He goes on to point out that most businesses, at one point or another, attempt to ingratiate themselves as friendships... while also charging you money. He finishes by pointing out that most people hate the banking industry because their only play is to try and be "a part of the family" or whatever, but your family would never charge you an ATM fee, a $40 overdraft charge, etc... so we end up hating the banks more than if they'd said "Wells Fargo - cold-hearted bastards that will keep your money safe" (anecdotal evidence of mine: Wells Fargo has the least touchy-feely ad campaign and the highest customer satisfaction) The maintenance guy wasn't expecting a tip. He was expecting you to be grateful so that the next time you needed something, you'd call him. He wanted you to owe him a favor. Instead you put a monetary value on that favor and negated it - you don't need to call him next time, you tipped him and handled it. The difference between "tips" and "bribes" is that a bribe comes first - and it will absolutely get you a good seat in a spendy restaurant or a good room at the hotel. Both are the exact opposite of a favor - in my example about the European waiter, he was giving good service because that brought you back to the restaurant which lined his pockets indirectly rather than directly (and a lot more effectively). And the fact that in the US, the culture is to give servers the expectation that: It's an untenable situation that cannot help but increase interpersonal strife. As a side note, I think it's interesting that Hubski is all about supporting the tipping culture and what a radical dick I am for saying I don't like it (while blissfully ignoring the fact that I participate in it) while Reddit is all about how stupid tipping is.
I agree with you in principle, but I suppose I'm more acquiescent than resentful. I certainly don't agree with arguments that say that waitstaff deserve tips, because they work hard. Everyone in the service industry who is good at their job works hard, and most of them don't get tips (I worked as a line cook as a teenager, and I'll be damned if I didn't sweat my ass off). It is more correct to say that waitstaff deserve tips, because they get paid slave wages otherwise, so that restaurateurs can keep (nominal) prices artificially low. I 'support' the tipping culture in the sense that I engage in it, but I don't support in in principle.
Waitstaff deserve tips because they need to make a living and we've got a bass-ackward structure in place to make that happen. It's a real "fog of war" situation right now, though - I've heard from more than a couple servers that if you really want to register your displeasure at your service, tip a dollar because lots of people don't tip on principle. Then there's the fact that there's no real agreement as to who gets tipped what and any etiquette guideline is more likely to tell you what to tip the paperboy than the data recovery specialist. Into this we've got the typical opportunities afforded by the large and organized over the small and disparate - restaurants skimming off tips, the IRS confusing the issue, etc. So what I see is a situation where everyone is pissed off - except the restaurants. I'm into pissing restaurants off.
This ain't Europe, darlin'. Over there being a waiter makes you decent cash, the kind of cash you can live off of without the tip. If we here in the good ole USofA followed suit then we COULD do away with tipping. Also related: Life Pro Tip--If you want to have a good idea if someone's a nice person or just good at making you think they're nice, look at how they treat wait staff.
Because what originally started out as a reward for exceptional service has become obligatory. Worse, servers universally decided about five years ago that cheap was 20% and a good tip was 30% (instead of 15% and 25%)... right about the same time it became chic to order off the wall instead of getting table service. I've also noticed that service has declined in general and surliness has increased - all while feeling entitled to more money. The rest of the world doesn't do it this way. Servers get a living wage and if they deliver exceptional service they get a small gratuity. I don't begrudge anyone making a living, but the system is bullshit. Tips also provide a marvelous way for the restaurant to skim off the wages of the employees - so you get pissed off paying $2 for someone to hand you a Jack Daniels on the rocks and the server gets pissed off because of that $2 they're only making $125. The whole system is bullshit.
The system is only broken because people feel compelled to tip 20% no matter what. My tipping works as followed: Horrible Service: 10%
Decent Service: 15%
Good service: 20%
Great service: 25+% Rarely do I tip less than 20% but if I do, I the experience was likely bad enough that I've spoken to a manager. -Most people don't do this, they just leave the 15-20% and kick the can down the road to guys like me. I'm fortunate to be able to eat in some nice restaurants from time to time. In fact, last night I had the Chefs tasting menu here. -Where you live you are swimming in 5 star restaurants, we unfortunately are not... but this one was fantastic. The server received a 25% tip which was more than justified. When he walked us out of the restaurant, he passed the fireplace where our coats were being "warmed" next to the fire and helped us in to them and then gave us some scones for our morning coffee. -Top notch. The system works in these types of restaurants. It's broken at Buffalo Wild Wings. At places like that there is a sense of entitlement. "I'm going to give you lackluster service and you're going to tip me 15-20% regardless" is the mindset. -I would agree that the system is bullshit in those types of places. It works well in fine dining though.
If I go to a restaurant and buy a bowl of corn chowder and a glass of water, the restaurant is into me for $6. Let's say I give the standard of 20% - that gets you $1.20. I'm not the kind of asshole who tips coins, which means I'm tipping $2. You're getting a 33% tip for bringing me two things and we're both feeling ripped off - you because I only left $2 and me because fully 1/4 of my meal price was your surly, unthankful service. If I go to the same restaurant and buy the surf'n'turf and a flute of roederer, the restaurant is into me for $85. Let's say I give the standard of 20% - that gets you $17. You've still brought me two things - but now you're making $8.50 per serving vessel. Yer damn skippy you're happy - you made "case of beer money" bringing me two damn things. Me? Well, there's no kind of service you can legally give me that will make me happy, particularly since in order to drink that glass of roederer over we involved the sommelier who I also have to tip. It makes more sense to tip at Subway than it does to tip at Spago. At a 5star the guy who brings me my food is just bringing me my food. At Subway I'm determining if I want e.coli or not. Pay an hourly wage that makes sense, just like the rest of the world. If I think you went above and beyond, I'll slip you a little something. Otherwise just f'ing figure it into the cost of the food.
But then, you're still going to be "tipping" because the restaurant is going to have to pay these people more money. When they have to do this, the prices go up. 6 or one half dozen?
Half dozen of the other, please. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_(gratuity)#Tipping_in_other...
Point 1: places like B-Dubs isn't worth it not simply because of the system but because of the jacked up prices on mass produced food. It's better to save your cash for the places that are worth it. I think I correctly read this point in your post. Point 2: I am always delicious. With coffee or otherwise. I think I also correctly read that in your pos--what? What kind of harassment...?!
1. A place like B-Dubs isn't about the food, unless you're not a fan of food. It's about meeting up with friends and watching sports and drinking. The overwhelming majority of people there go for this reason. If you're going to B-Dubs for the cuisine, you have a whole slew of other problems beyond tipping/service. 2. I'm not sure I get this part?- I think I also correctly read that in your pos--what? What kind of harassment...?!
You said scones are delicious. My name is Intimidating Scones. I made a joke that I'm delicious which is borderline sexual harass--OH NVM! I'm not funny!!
Agree 100%. A tip is entirely optional in NZ, and servers are paid the same as anyone else. Service is not always as prompt and butt-kissy here, I must admit - but they also don't try to hustle you out the door so they can turn the table, either. Service is definitely not as good as in the US though, in general. Better, in better restaurants, as you'd expect.
Service varies a lot on where you are. It's much better in the south. It's better in Seattle than it is in Portland, and it's better in Portland than it is in Los Angeles, and it's better in Los Angeles than it is in Vancouver BC and it's better in San Francisco than everywhere listed above. There's a very real reason to tip well - if you're at the establishment regularly, getting a regular waiter or waitress who knows you're worth serving is stellar. You get the good table, you get prompt service, you get personal attention, if you mention it's an occasion they'll hook you up with little treats, etc. In Hollywood, where "lunch" is where things happen, it's entirely appropriate to have a good line on a good waiter in a good restaurant because having the meal go well helps having the deal go well. But there's a world of difference between tipping "extra" - 5%-10% - for that kind of service and the basic, surly not-paying-attention you get at Applebee's. Yet if I pay 25% at Kate M's I'm paying $7.50 and if I pay 20% at Applebee's I'm paying $4. So really, the actual tip between "you suck" and "you rule" is $3.50. And that's bullshit.
Portland's service is terrible. In other places I have lived a server makes $2.15 an hour, in Portland they make $9 an hour. The higher minimum for servers here disincentivizes hustling to pay your rent. A good cook might make more then $10 an hour if they are lucky here, but $11-12 is pretty standard in the rest of the nation. Cooks starve so that servers can take home $20-30 an hour with the minimum subsidy. As someone who works service 15% is fine, even if I am giving top notch service to demanding people I don't mind a 15% tip. At the bar tip a dollar a drink or drink beer. Your pours will be shit if you tip any less. As a bartender the dollar a drink is fine but I don't really care all that much, it's the $20-$100 dollar tips that really line my pockets. Why people tip 100-500% is a mystery to me, but I will treat you like a fucking king if you are that guy or gal.
That's you, though. I regularly read or hear complaints from those who argue that 15% is insulting. Not only that, but now you're saying 15% is okay... when the base wage is 4x as high as it is elsewhere! Which is something that has never been made known to me in all the times I've dined in Portland. The system sucks. It's a terrible maladaptation of free market principles.As someone who works service 15% is fine, even if I am giving top notch service to demanding people I don't mind a 15% tip.
I've taken to giving 20%, regardless of service, except in the rare case of being at a cheap breakfast place where 20% amounts to a pittance. I think in this way you can pay the "real" price of the meal without playing the charade that tipping is an acknowledgement that the service was good. Clearly if tipping ever served this purpose, its not how it is presently.
| rare case of being at a cheap breakfast place where 20% amounts to a pittance.| You shouldn't feel especially bad here. Breakfast joints are high volume quick turnaround places where the diners don't sit very long at all. I've known more than server that absolutely refused to get a job at a nicer place than the diner they were working at because the tips were more reliable and added up in the aggregate. they could always count on a solid breakfast rush that didn't vary from day to day. I usually default to 20% plus all change leading up to the next dollar in diner settings. There isn't really even an opportunity for a cheap breakfast place to give you "great" service, -they just have to not fuck it up by forgetting drinks or screwing up orders, etc.
...and I give 25% but I still resent the kabuki, especially when I know the establishment is skimming off the tips, the busboy isn't bringing me my water because he thinks my waitress is cheating him and the manager keeps coming by to see if I really did order two glasses of wine or is the waitress skimming?
When I used to barback I treated the bartenders at our club as my customers. When you look at it this way it's hard to fuck it up and not deliver awesome service that will make sure you get paid...even by the ones that have zero problem not tipping the house prescribed amount. Some employees don't get that they have more than one type of customer, and if you're getting tipped out, the person handing you your money is most definitely your customer, -more so than the guy in the booth.the busboy isn't bringing me my water because he thinks my waitress is cheating him
This is crass, but what the hell.... I totally misread this at first to read I went from being a bus-boy to being a manager at a fine dining restaurant. Most people bus tables or bar-back as a stepping stone to waiting tables or bar tending. It's a sort of farm system for talent in the restaurant. The cream will rise to the top. -ew. But kleinbl00 is right that when you are a bus-boy or "servers assistant" as we called them, you will take better care of the servers that take good care of you. It's in the servers best interest to take good care of the bussers.When I used to bareback I treated the bartenders at our club as my customers
It makes for a very different sentence when you add the "e".
I loved being a bar back at the club I worked at, -the physicality of it. The place was a zoo and was packed all the time. It was quite a workout. The best part of that job was we were only open Friday and Saturday and I made easily over 300 a night. Like every club, it's hot then it's not, but for the first year it was open it was insane. Regarding your point about taking care of each other, I busted my ass and somehow I ended up banking more than some of the bartenders each night after they had all tipped my out collectively. But the service industry isn't defined by the good times or the bad timed, but by the average over time as you know :) we had a couple backs that just showed up and got tipped out accordingly.