Because we have a separation of church and state does not mean we were founded on secular principles. Overwhelmingly the founders and the society they founded were christians. I am not a christian and I value the First Amendment greatly but I am also not a revisionist. The founders were christians. Some were deists but even they (and I mainly mean Jefferson here) considered christianity a philosophy that guided their principles. They fled religious persecution in England but it wasn't persecution of their atheism or non-beleif, it was what flavor of christianity they wanted to partake in. It is an interesting question under the heading "Why has France become more secular and why has the US become more religious", but then this too would be misleading. It's my understanding that in the US people are becoming more secular. I think the religious folk just have a louder and more popular media presence than ever before.
I have to disagree - where in our constitution is religion mentioned anywhere, outside of the "freedom of" clause? If the founding document of a nation does not in any way make a statement of religion, it is by definition secular. ("of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal"). The only rules laid out for America are purely irreligious. Regardless of what philosophies the founding fathers subscribed to, they had the good sense to not attribute it to Jesus nor God. They might have been Christians, Muslims, or Scientologists for all I care, but when they designed this country and codified our rules, their rules were secular. EDIT: I'd also like to add that I don't disagree with your latter statement, that people in the US are becoming more secular. This is verifiable through polls confirming that people identifying as 'irreligious' are on the rise. However, the power that the older (and more religious) generation still has on our politics is undeniable, and openly secular or atheistic leaders have almost no hope of being elected in our country. The power of the Christian majority is still hard to deny, given that we still even have debates on topics like the rights of gays to marry or women to choose abortions.
I guess it comes down to this: was the language left out because they specifically didn't want to tie the US to religion or was it left out because it was so ubiquitous it need not be mentioned? I, for one, hope that it was the former. Jefferson clearly had the foresight to want to craft the founding documents that allowed for future generations to interpret and amend them as they'd see fit. "“the earth belongs in usufruct to the living,” -What a guy. P.S. I look forward to responding to this further. Damn I'm tired. Goodnight hubski.
It doesn't actually come down to that, though. Cup isn't saying that the intention of the founding fathers was to create a secular nation, he's saying that the rules they made were secular. It might seem like a slight difference, but it is significant. It's like how you and mk were intending to make a convenient porn site but it turned out to be Hubski accidentally- your intentions don't matter once the creation is beyond your control.
It doesn't actually come down to that, though. Cup isn't saying that the intention of the founding fathers was to create a secular nation, he's saying that the rules they made were secular. It might seem like a slight difference, but it is significant.
The distinction isn't lost on me and it is far from insignificant. Mr. Cup has made some great points and has perhaps changed my thinking here. But I'll take a look at the topic with some fresh eyes tomorrow. Some great food for thought. I'll be dreaming of conversations with the founding fathers. I must say, I hope it looks like this
I agree with your assessment there. Jefferson clearly was under the impression that the government as he and the other founders created it would be revolutionized on a regular basis, and not treated as a dogma. He was very much against dogma, it seemed, and whether or not the other founders were similarly inclined, it seems clear, by their writings, that they were highly influenced by the Enlightenment, including thinkers like Voltaire and Thomas Paine. Whatever faith the founders were, it is inarguable that the men who influenced them most profoundly were philosophical deists and not able to be called Christian in the traditional sense. Sleep well, I hope to continue this discussion soon!
goodnight!
But remember the founding fathers had a far less federalist understanding of government than we do today. This is even true of the party at the time which was called the federalist party. If it's not in the Constitution, it doesn't mean the founding fathers absolutely wanted government staying out of it, it either meant the founding fathers thought it wasn't the role of government, or they were leaving that power to the states. States could and did have official religions. I don't think the founding fathers prevented the federal government from making one national state religion because they were trying to banish religion from government, they were just leaving it to the states. That reinforces thenewgreen's point that these people were, overwhelmingly, Christians.
I find that the question of their own religious beliefs is highly irrelevant to the discussion. What they wrote is what matters, because that is what they all agreed was the best foundation for the country. Likewise, I find that the states who declared themselves Christian (or, more accurately, a specific flavor of protestant) really have no bearing on whether America was founded as a "Christian nation" or a "secular nation," they are merely a subset of the whole, and the power of state's rights has differed greatly over time. The foundational document of the country was express in its intent to let people worship in peace as they pleased. Perhaps they could have never forseen the influx of different, non-Christian religions, or atheism, but that's ok because it was never written by then that that mattered. Again, I would highlight that the founders were deeply influenced by Enlightenment thinkers, many of whom fit in the atheistic-agnostic-deistic spectrum, and who were express in their philosophies that governments should be secular. In fact, I consider Thomas Paine to be a founding father and he was explicitly not Christian. They were very worldly folks and knew philosophy and political science, and understood religion's place was the individual and their community, not the government. Individual states may have differed but the federal government of the United States was never, ever "Christian."
Excellent post, both points. America was not founded on secular principles ... and I would argue that poster child for religious fundamentalism, in the 21st century at least, is certainly the Middle East.
in the description, I said that America is the poster child for religious fundamentalism in the Western World, but I forgot to put that in the title. Sorry!
No, no, my fault. I should have read the description closer. Nonetheless, that statement still isn't sitting quite right with me. I think ... we're just the poster child for religion in the west. Some fundamentalism just comes with the territory.
Most countries have fundamentalists. For example, in the Netherlands we have a bible belt. However, most ridiculous religious claims come from American soil. This might be because politics and religion are so tightly interwoven in the US or because no one is actually taking religious fundamentalists seriously the way the US does.
When I said founded on secular principles, the separation of church and state was what I was referring to, actually. But hmmm. Good answer.