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comment by AhimMoonchowsen
AhimMoonchowsen  ·  4819 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not “Crazy”
Though I do think that often men (myself included) can be guilty of "gaslighting", it's important to note that there are large communication differences between men and women. For example, "the average woman chalking up 20,000 words in a day - 13,000 more than the average man".-http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-419040/Women-talk-...

For some men, this might come across as being overly "emotional" or "needy" when in fact, it's just the way women are wired. Conversely, men are not wired to be as emotionally expressive as women. This means we "guys" come across as being more reserved or worse "listeners", when in fact it's not the "listening" we are bad at, it's the "sharing".

This being said, there is no excuse for comments like "can't you do anything right?", -That's not being a "guy", that's being a "dick".





tallon  ·  4819 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I think the main point of the article is that everyone has a right to his or her feelings. When telling someone that their feelings are invalid, that is a blow to their dignity. The author of the article points out that women are more prone to becoming insecure after hearing such comments, both because of their nature and because of social conditioning. Even comments such as "You're too sensitive" indicate that you do not believe a person has a right to his or her feelings, which will most likely lead to frustration, resentment, and poor communication.

What I wanted to accomplish by sharing this article is simply to make others more aware of how women respond to such comments. Obviously, people are nowadays more knowledgeable on differences in communication styles. However, what you mention isn't entirely relevant to the original article. The message the author is trying to convey is how people use their words, not how often. After all, "You're too sensitive, relax" is not a typical response to a woman who's talking too much (which is what you reference). This isn't an issue of sharing too much or too little, it's a matter of how people - even women - view women - which seems to be needy, irrational, emotional, and on. Yet because of these views, which people may not even know that they believe, women are often put down and, even worse, they blame themselves for it by simply attributing it to their own nature. They are effectively unable to do anything in an environment which overwhelms them with the idea that they are not in control of their own emotions. Sounds a bit like brainwashing, doesn't it?

Therefore, one solution to this problem that I see is to make people more aware of it, since then you can consciously catch yourself in the act and, hopefully, stop doing it over time. I believe that the welfare of humanity depends on the happiness people derive from creativity and their expression. If people are happy and fulfilled, they will create more and increase happiness for others in general. So, in my mind, why foster negative viewpoints and perpetuate negative stereotypes, which seem so redundant and hamper the development of humans?

The last thing I want to say is that I hope no man takes this as an attack on men. I myself have often "gaslighted" girls. Even now, I am aware that my own view is biased negatively in subtle ways towards women...which seems sad to me, considering that I am one.

AhimMoonchowsen  ·  4819 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I realize that my comment was tangential to the article. I didn't mean to suggest that the fact that women talk more and are more expressive is representative of what the author was communicating. I do think that this is likely a component of what leads men towards a state of frustration-anger and ultimately resentment at times towards women. This resentment then leads to "gaslighting". -I'm not condoning it or or justifying it, in fact I repudiate such behavior. I'm just trying to diagnose origin.

I think you were right in posting the article to try and foster awareness of behaviors. As I stated previously, I have been guilty of it before... I'm not proud of it, but I'm sure it's occurred. I will be more aware moving forward, thanks to this post.

Appreciate it :)

Saydrah  ·  4818 days ago  ·  link  ·  
As a person of the female persuasion, I think that gaslighting may even be in some small way responsible for the feminine tendency to use more words than necessary. Look at these two sentences:

"Hey. You're being a dick. Knock it off."

"Excuse me, but I don't think that was called for. I understand that you're feeling upset because I didn't acknowledge your email yesterday, and I apologize for that, but I don't think that name-calling is warranted here. Can we talk about this?"

Can you hear many women saying the first, or many men saying the second?

Why is that, do you think? Numerous possible explanations exist, but I would posit that the woman is "covering her tracks" and pre-emptively apologizing and acknowledging the validity of the (probably male) other person's feelings BECAUSE she is accustomed to being gaslighted when she expresses displeasure.

This could easily extend to other scenarios -- extra word use when giving an opinion to ensure that she's acknowledging that others may have different opinions, extra word use when making a decision to guard against being told that her decision is crazy...

_refugee_  ·  4141 days ago  ·  link  ·  

As another member of the female persuasion, I can see me saying both of these. The first if I'm out at a bar with friends, the second if I'm in a work environment. Context really matters here.

I also happen to be relatively foul-mouthed and blunt in person/conversationally. Typing, I think I tend to be a little verbose.

thenewgreen  ·  4818 days ago  ·  link  ·  
The crazy thing is how young it starts though. Girls are far more vocal than boys from infancy. It's a hardware issue not a software one. It's amazing though, it's one of the things that makes women fantastic!! We (the sexes) are different, let's celebrate this!!

I have a 9month old daughter and she spends a lot of time with our friends son who is also 9mo old. He is a fantastic little boy and he is very adept at crawling/standing etc but when it comes to verbal skills... .he's got nothing on her. She is chatty, chatty, chatty. This is not an uncommon scenario.

I'm not a big "gaslighter" but I'm even less of one since having a daughter. She is amazing...YOU ladies are amazing. Every guy should have a daughter. -Best thing that ever happened to me.

I posted this a while back and thought it was apropos (please disregard the creepy cover art)

http://hubski.com/pub?id=2376

Saydrah  ·  4818 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Remember, though, that infants understand more than they are able to vocalize! Pre-verbal infants can understand and communicate in sign language. It may be that daughters mimic their mothers' vocalization patterns when they begin speaking, while sons mimic their fathers. That doesn't mean the difference is not gender based (if it weren't, half of daughters would mimic fathers, and sons their mothers) but it may not be hardware related. It would be interesting to compare the early speech of female infants with single fathers to that of female infants in two-parent and single mother households.

There certainly are intrinsic differences (to deny that is erasure of transgendered individuals; if no differences are innate, then who would feel like the "wrong" gender from early childhood, and why?) but I think it is important to consider early nurturing rather than simply writing things off as nature. Too much emphasis of nature over nurture leads to things like, "Well, my daughter is just less interested in math--the sexes are different!" when the real problem may be that the daughter has no female role models with an interest in math.

thenewgreen  ·  4817 days ago  ·  link  ·  
The differences are innate. The following is an excerpt from a study that showed that men utilize "grey" matter in their brain more while women utilize "white":

The results from this study may help explain why men and women excel at different types of tasks, said co-author and neuropsychologist Rex Jung of the University of New Mexico. For example, men tend to do better with tasks requiring more localized processing, such as mathematics, Jung said, while women are better at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions of the brain, which aids language skills.

This in no way means women can't be as good (or better) at tasks requiring "localized" processing. It just means that our brains have evolved differently. It's fantastic.

I realize that "infants understand more than they are able to vocalize". I am around two 9 month old kids every day. My daughter talks equally to both my wife and myself. I don't see her "mimicking" one more than the other. Her brain is just engineered differently than the little boys, by design. It's not better/worse, it just is. (actually.. I think it's better but I'm very biased)

btw, my wife is fantastic at math and is FAR better at "localized processing" than I am. I am much better with language etc. -So anomalies do occur.

source: http://www.livescience.com/3808-men-women-differently.html

Saydrah  ·  4817 days ago  ·  link  ·  
According to Dr. Godfrey Pearlson, author of multiple studies comparing adult male and female brains, "Only when we look at very large populations and look for slight but significant trends do we see the generalizations. There are plenty of exceptions, but there's also a grain of truth, revealed through the brain structure, that we think underlies some of the ways people characterize the sexes."

I don't dispute that certain innate differences exist; however, as Pearlson cautions, it is unwise to assume that we can differentiate between the capabilities of individuals in the same way the we can predict patterns of ability in very large populations. Nor does it mean social factors don't play a role--women may be better (statistically, in very large populations) at language skills and empathy, but how many women psychologists or authors were there at a time when the employment of women in fields outside nursing or teaching was socially unacceptable?

There's a relevant XKCD I'm sure you've seen -- "You're really bad at math!" vs. "Women are really bad at math!"

I think you're doing a little bit of the same thing here: "My daughter proves that women are inherently more talkative!" rather than, "My daughter is very talkative! On average, when studying large populations, women are much more talkative."

Not nearly as dangerous, but again I would caution you to keep Dr. Pearlson's statements in mind when generalizing about gender differences. In nearly all cases, individual differences (like your difference from your wife) will be greater than the difference between the averages of large populations. It is unlikely that any individual's abilities in any area can be meaningfully judged based on studies dealing with an average of thousands or millions who happen to share their gender.

Source: http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-ho...