Some clever dick - probably at The Economist - is working on an article right now that is simply a long list of every single trade deal, negotiated contract, and agreement, that will expire on April 12th. In the second column of this chart will be the date the original deal/agreement was signed. The third column will be the number of years it took to come to an accord and sign that deal. The fourth column will be the name of the EU Minister that is responsible for negotiating each contract. The fifth column will be the next available appointment date on that EU Minister's calendar. (Probably somewhere between 18-36 months in the future.) In fact, it could just be an illustration for the cover of The Economist. That's all you'd need. Leavers are like fucking schoolchildren... just no clue how the world works. It's just so ... pathetic. You watch the kid tie a sheet around his neck like a cape, climb up onto the roof, and he smiling and so excited as he runs to the edge of the roof and... (Apologies for badging your post, KB, but I had to.)
A lot of the people who voted leave are in relative poverty. Barely living paycheck to paycheck in rundown ex-industrial towns where half the shops on the high-street are boarded up. No opportunities, no prospects, having to use food-banks and community projects just so they don't go hungry. Since 2010 there's been 8% cut in education, an almost 3000% rise in the amount of necessary foodbanks, and a 169% increase in homelessness. The government 'broke the contract'. It's a bit rich to expect a person who may be wondering where their next meal is going to come from to be clued up on geopolitics and the intricacies of economy and trade. To expect them to understand a process which has reduced the UK parliament into chaos and a laughing-stock. It serves no purpose to liken them to school children and call them pathetic. All recent history has shown them is that the rich get richer and nothing improves for the working class. Then the 'Vote Leave' campaign comes along and is the first thing in a long time to speak directly to them. To directly address their problems and struggle. It doesn't matter that it's all bullshit and populism; you'll grab onto any ledge you can when you're in free-fall, even if it's just to bring the person who pushed you down with you. The Guardian has been doing a great video series called 'Anywhere but Westminster'. It's certainly helped me with empathise with those I had no understanding of back when this all started:Leavers are like fucking schoolchildren... just no clue how the world works. It's just so ... pathetic. You watch the kid tie a sheet around his neck like a cape, climb up onto the roof, and he smiling and so excited as he runs to the edge of the roof and...
This is what has bitten the Democrats in the ass so hard in the US: Republicans say "it's the darkies!" while Democrats say "...it's complicated..." and the minute you need a powerpoint to give a man a reason he can't afford to send his kids to college, you lose. "You've been living a charmed life on the massive pillaging of generations' worth of natural resources and now that the bill has come due your children will live a twilight impression of your postindustrial glory" isn't a comparable chant to "drill baby drill." Americans don't learn the austerity the British Isles suffered under after WWII - we just know the Marshall Plan. And we don't know that Saudi Arabia and Iran became de facto American protectorates at the cost of the UK, we just know that we won the goddamn war and to the victor go the spoils.It's a bit rich to expect person a who may be wondering where there next meal is going to come from to be clued up on geopolitics and the intricacies of economy and trade.
First off, thanks for your thoughts Jezzer. I know a lot of Brits, ex-pats living in the UK, and Brits and Scots living in the EU. Hearing from another voice on the inside of this fiasco is always welcome, and provides some more insight for me. Thanks for that. I've been sitting with this comment for a day or so, and trying to figure out why it bugs me. And I think it all comes down to the Social Contract. Living in a society requires the members of that society to take a tiny bit of responsibility for their part in making the society work. You can't just idle along and watch The Voice and buy 99 Flakes at the off-license. Every once in a while you have to vote. You have to engage with SOMETHING. You have to participate. If you don't you are a leech and a subject... not a citizen. Your comment is elitist and derogatory to the people you claim voted for Brexit. It treats adults like children, and I don't think that is fair. Were they played? Absolutely. Boris and his bus was brilliant marketing and a total scam and a con from day 1. His end game is coming around now, and he may actually have played himself right into the PMs seat... because honestly, who the fuck wants it now? There is ZERO chance for whoever occupies it next to be successful, but then Boris has never been successful at anything he has ever done, and continues to rise in the ranks like a turd in a pool. Back to my point - Writing off Leave voters as uninformed rubes absolves the assholes of their responsibility for this mess (notice how they all have purchase their new home addresses in Cyprus?) and blames the exact people who are most going to suffer. It's victim-blaming, pure and simple. Ten days. Then the UK quickly returns to being an isolated little island in the North Sea populated by four warring factions. Good times. It doesn't matter that it's all bullshit and populism; you'll grab onto any ledge you can when you're in free-fall, even if it's just to bring the person who pushed you down with you.
You say that my comment is elitist and derogatory in the way it treats adults like children. I’m not sure how it’s elitist or derogatory to claim that the average person struggling in relative poverty probably doesn’t care to read up on geopolitics. I don’t blame them for it or think it makes them worse people. I don’t think it makes them intrinsically stupid or somehow worse than me. It’s simply a observation. The whole point of it was to fight against your claim that not knowing about the world makes you a pathetic schoolchild. I mean, forget anything about relative poverty, just consider the average person. Me included. I am just as guilty of the ignorance that I'm accusing others of. I said it to kb in a PM and I'll say it again: I voted 'Remain' because... the status-quo was pretty good for me. On the face of it, I saw no reason for things to change so drastically. But there was no conscious geopolitical or economical basis behind my vote. And that’s coming from someone with a masters degree (though it's in music, so go figure) living a cushy middle-class lifestyle. If the people who swung the referendum are assholes, then so am I. I am the same as them, just with a more advantageous upbringing. Did you watch the ‘Anywhere But Westminster’ video? I realise that the link was wrong for a while, so I don’t blame you if you didn’t. That notwithstanding, all the leave voters who talk to the host never actually say anything about the EU, geopolitics, or trade. It’s all about how their hometown has gone to shit. How they are unemployed and can’t get a job. Or how they are employed but effectively take home less than the minimum wage. You talk about the ‘social contract’ and the responsibility one has as a member of a society. Fundamentally I agree with you. But someone whose disability benefits have been denied and has to get their meals from a foodbank probably doesn’t care much for the ‘social contract’. Where’s their benefit from it? It’s all there in the figures. Out of those polled, the most likely people to vote leave were: - Those with an income of less than £1,200 per month (66%) - Those in social housing provided by a local authority (70%) or housing association (68%) - Those finding it difficult to manage financially (70%) or just about getting by (60%) - Those who believed Britain has got a lot worse in the last ten years (73%) - Those who think things have got worse for them rather than other people (76%) - Those who perceive themselves as working class (59%) - Those who see themselves as English rather than British (74%) or more English than British (62%) This is particularly telling: And this is reflected by an observation from the host in another of the ‘Anywhere but Westminster’ videos: That’s the overarching point here. In a lot of ways, the result of the referendum has nothing to do with the EU. A lot of voters didn’t really have a clue about the nature of our relationship with EU. This is highlighted by the fact that even though the true impact of their decision has come to the surface and Vote Leave's lies exposed during the process of trying to leave, most of them still would vote leave again. So what they were voting for? To fix what they perceive as a broken country. They were voting for: “we’re in the shit over here and if you’re not going to help us then fuck you too.” People tried to raise their voice before through the general elections, but the FPTP system negated the impact of their votes. The referendum gave the voters a voice. A straight choice where safe seats, FPTP, and all that made no difference. So unfortunately, leaving the EU became collateral damage in a process of these people finally being able to raise their voice. Yes, some people who voted leave are racist assholes. And others are well-informed or well-off people with selfish agendas. But by pointing out all the things I have in this post, I am not attempting to “ absolves the assholes of their responsibility for this mess”, nor am I saying that it is the darn unwashed masses fault we’ve ended up here. I am saying that we need to be certain that we're pointing the finger at the right people. This is ultimately the fault of government, not that of the people who swung the vote. By blaming the people, you are doing exactly what Pie describes as populism in his video: masking the political failings by blaming others. Edit: I have a sneaking feeling that we're actually on the same page and that we've just misunderstood each other. Is that correct? - Those with no formal education qualifications (78%) or whose highest qualifications are CSEs or O-levels (61%) [rezzeJ note: These are the old form of GCSEs which are exams that you take at 16.]
The NatCen Panel post-Referendum survey asked what people thought the current priority for government should be… It is worth noting that Europe and the EU was significantly less likely to be selected overall than every issue other than unemployment, and less likely to be selected than education, the NHS, and immigration for those who voted Leave. This suggests that people were more focused on the domestic issues, rather than the detailed arguments about European relations… Around one in five, even though their underlying preference was to stay in the EU, voted Leave.
[There’s] a hell of a lot of other people who thought that [Brexit] was something that happened 2 years ago. And, for very understandable reasons, they can’t quite fathom why it’s dragging on
...participants who agreed that ‘politicians don’t listen to people like me’ were significantly more likely to vote Leave (58%) than those who did not (37%)
No. We weren't on the same page. But we are now. Damn. That was an excellent schooling you gave me! (My feeling was that a lot of basic middle-class people miss how practical and smart the poor and disadvantaged actually are. They have to deal with bureaucracies and learn systems and figure out how to make rent and be clever and cagey and overcome inconceivable hurdles that people living a generic middle-class life never have to face. So the poor/disadvantaged tend to be way more capable and competent than others give them credit for. That was my angle... I thought, "Hold on Jezzer, now let's not talk down about people who have it harder than we do. They aren't dumb." But... I really am wrong. They are dumb, in this case.) Case in point: https://www.express.co.uk/videos/5795420369001/Love-Island-Hayley-admits-she-doesn-t-know-what-Brexit-is Edit: I have a sneaking feeling that we're actually on the same page and that we've just misunderstood each other. Is that correct?
I had no intention of talking down anyone. I of course do not believe that social class has any standing on how practical/smart/hard-working/etc. a person is. Yes, in this case a dumb decision was made. But most importantly I wanted to highlight that it's far from their fault that they made this dumb decision.
What's gonna be great is when they do the same analysis on internal laws because while the United States has a lot of stupid antidemocratic shit on the books, we don't have "Henry VIII powers" that allow the fucking queen to go "We don't have time to talk about this, here's all the laws we had to replace because their EU equivalents are moot, suck it."