- He continued: “I thought it was interesting that this is happening, yet so many people are unaware of it. And the problem is people aren’t talking about it. What I’ve learned, as a guy, is to just ask women questions and listen to what they have to say. Go to your group of female friends and ask them about times they’ve experienced sexism at their job, and you’ll get blown away by the things they tell you. You’ll think, ‘What the fuck? This is way darker than anything I’d imagined.’”
I then proceeded to ask him about the sexual misconduct allegations against Louis C.K., a sometime mentor of Ansari’s. The two share a manager, Dave Becky, and booking agent, Mike Berkowitz—two of the more powerful figures in the comedy world, who also represent Kevin Hart and a slew of other top-shelf comics.
“I’m not talking about that,” Ansari brusquely replied.
That's too bad. I've always liked Louis's comedy because of the perspective he brought to controversial topics. But now that the allegations are out, stuff he has said have taken a really gloomy turn in retrospect. It's just not at all funny with the new context... Queue living in fear my other favourite comedians will get accused of sexual misconduct soon? It's just revolting how it has all been ignored and covered up in the industry. Surely living in the public eye would make you more concerned about covering up other people's misconduct? Look at all the shit John Stewart is getting for lauging off the matter when asked about it. Would it not make more sense to blacklist the rapists and assaulters, if only for the potential bad repercussions on your career?
“All I can tell you is I’ve worked with Louis for 30 years and he’s a wonderful man and person and I’ve never heard anything about this,” Stewart said before Axelrod ended the show. “We’ve all known Bill Cosby was a prick for a long time, so I don’t know what to tell you. But I didn’t know about the sexual assault, but you’re right, it’s important.” Link. Kind of unfair to give him flak for that if you ask me - responding with a chuckle to a weird allegation that seems to come out of left field is not "deeply problematic", even if the subject matter is. (P.S. I think it's "cue", not "queue")“I apologize. I’m not that connected to that world,” Stewart added, turning more serious. “I don’t know what you’re talking about but—I can’t really answer. I don’t know what to say.”
Oops yes, it is Cue. I was taking more about the industry's general attitude of dismissing such accusations as "just rumours" way too readily . Of course I get that as celebrities false rumours to get attention are a thing. But when someone gets repeatedly accused, and you have ongoing work with that person... why don't more people distance themselves if they personally find the claims believable? You know, as a sign that this kind of behaviour is not OK. With Weinstein, Spacey, (less so) Louis CK is was clearly going on for way too long with people around actively covering their tracks...
And we certainly weren’t expecting it to threaten the stability of the British government or the ongoing Brexit negotiations. And yet here we are. In the wake of accusations that Harvey Weinstein sexually harassed and assaulted multiple women, women began to come forward with their own stories of harassment at the hands of British politicians. Prime Minister Theresa May has already lost one cabinet minister to the scandal, and dozens of other Conservative M.P.s have been accused of harassment and assault, as have multiple officials from other parties. Ms. May does not have a majority in Parliament, and was already struggling to move forward with the negotiations of how Britain will leave the European Union. If accused lawmakers from her party are forced to resign, she could lose her ability to govern at all, leaving the future of Brexit even more uncertain. All about equilibrium As we watch the powerful consequences of the Weinstein effect, we keep getting reminded of a very different news story we have been covering over the past year: Brazil’s widening corruption scandal. It, too, involved widespread bad acts that were an “open secret.” It, too, was enabled by a code of silence and a hierarchy of powerful people that protected perpetrators. And when the corruption came to light, it, too, threatened a government’s stability. And so perhaps research on systemic corruption can help us understand the escalating consequences of harassment accusations around the world. Social scientists who study corruption say the one critical thing to understand is that it is perpetuated by a “corrupt equilibrium.” When people see bribery tolerated, even rewarded, they begin to assume it is the way things are done in that system. They realize that speaking out would mean taking on a whole system of powerful people, not just a single bad actor. And so, fearful of the consequences, they stay silent. And so the equilibrium perpetuates itself. That seems to be what happened in Brazil, where the scandal has ensnared much of the government and opposition. It seems many people were aware of what was going on, even if they weren’t taking bribes themselves, but did nothing because they feared the consequences of speaking out. The Harassment Equilibrium Sound familiar? The signs are there that harassers were enabled and protected by a similar kind of equilibrium in the halls of Westminster. (And in Hollywood. And TV news. And magazine journalism. The list grows every day.) Ben Kentish, a reporter for The Independent, a British newspaper, wrote that harassment was widely known, but that lawmakers kept silent about their abusive colleagues because “the sense of loyalty to their party and their colleagues, or to their own political ambitions, trumped their concern for junior parliamentary staff.” Junior staff members, he said, kept silent because they feared for their jobs. And many have said that the problem was endemic across all parties. Kavya Kaushik, a former activist and candidate for Britain’s Liberal Democrat party, wrote on Twitter that she had been groped by a lawmaker, but that a party official dismissed her reports and pressured her to continue canvassing with her abuser. “Young people in politics are brainwashed into tribalism and convinced to stay quiet for the good of the party,” she wrote. In other words, if the accusations are correct, the British political system had developed an equilibrium that tacitly protected and perpetuated sexual harassment across multiple political parties. The Long-Term Costs In the case of corruption, the cost of a damaging equilibrium can be measured in bribes paid, economies distorted, witnesses silenced. And in the case of harassment and assault, it can be measured in bodies and minds damaged, careers destroyed and trust shattered. But because they infect whole systems, they also cause damage when they are finally broken. In Brazil, corruption spread so widely through the political system that when the reckoning finally arrived, the entire political system came to be seen as implicated by association. The country has been wracked by protests. Public trust in the government is at a record low. And parties that relied on politicians who have been tainted by the scandal are now struggling to restore institutional stability. The consequences of breaking the harassment equilibrium turn out to be similar. As perpetrators are accused, they are taking their projects, colleagues and organizations down with them. Hollywood studios are rushing to distance themselves from Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey and others accused of sexual harassment and assault, and movies and television shows centered on those senior figures are now in jeopardy. A new magazine to be built around Leon Wieseltier has been cancelled after multiple women accused him of harassment. And in Britain, Ms. May’s government and other political parties are now struggling to contain the damage of harassment that went ignored for years. When systems protect bad behavior, they ultimately put themselves at risk. This morning's "Interpreter" from the New York TimesWe were heartened to see the immediate, powerful consequences of the Weinstein effect across the American entertainment and media industries. But we weren’t really expecting the phenomenon to quickly make the jump to London.
The effect rippled all the way to Montreal too: http://www.cbc.ca/radio/q/friday-oct-20-2017-taggart-torrens-andrew-garfield-and-more-1.4360356/quebec-stars-eric-salvail-and-gilbert-rozon-hit-with-sexual-harassment-allegations-1.4362444 It's undeniable there has been a big surge in accusations being brought forward. And this whole equilibrium thing makes a lot of sense. It might be naive of me, but such an equilibrium seems kind of counter-intuitive in a way? Let's say 5% of people are horrible rapists in Hollywood. There is not much advantage for the 95% of non-rapists to help them camouflage their actions. There is always a risk those people will get caught. And then the non-rapists get punished too by association (think of all the other people working on House of Cards, or co-stars in Louis CK's new film). I guess it's hard calling the shots when you're new to an industry and are trying to make it there. But once you have a more established career, why risk working with someone with a bad reputation? I'm sure Netflix could have cast someone else for the role. But I guess the secrecy of it, makes it easier to ignore. What if they are just rumours But hopefully after the Wiestein effect settles down, it will change the industry's practices at least a little.
Except those 5% have the ability to decide whether you get that starring role in their next (fill in the blank), so yes, over time, people have Done Things to ensure they got the role/job/gig/money. So yeah.... the 95% want to be the 5%, and you don't get into that club if you start calling the members of the 5% sick sexual predators and rapists. Let's say 5% of people are horrible rapists in Hollywood. There is not much advantage for the 95% of non-rapists to help them camouflage their actions.
Fuck "starring role." Those people have the ability to decide whether or not you get a catering gig. They have the ability to decide whether you're a PA or a Key Set PA. They have the ability to decide whether they're renting lights from you or not. They have the ability to decide whether your rent is going to be covered reading shitty scripts at $20 each or donating plasma. The problem with endemic corruption is it's endemic. I had an Indian friend tell me that the process of governance and permitting in India is determined by how sweets boxes full of money. If you've got one corrupt official you can go to an uncorrupt official. If you've got every corrupt official you accept the corruption. What else can you do? And let's suppose that 5% of Hollywood are sick sexual predators and rapists. Let's assume every person in Hollywood knows at least one other person in Hollywood on a more than cordial level. That means somewhere between 5% and 95% of Hollywood are enablers. They're accepting the corruption because what else can you do? You start taking sweets containers full of money. After all, that's the way the system works. Sure - you're not going to rape because you can get away with it. Masturbate in front of women? Somewhere, both Harvey Weinstein and Louis CK got the idea they were allowed to do that. So you're not going to insist upon sweets containers with bills in them before anything happens... but if you don't get one, you're not going to help the citizen in front of you. Maybe you aren't going to count the money in front of people. But you're not going to act surprised when it lands on your desk. But all of a sudden, the whole world has its panties in a twist over corruption... and in a Weinstein world, everyone reading this is wondering if I'm allowed to say "panties in a twist" anymore. Never raped anyone. Never so much as propositioned anyone on set. I believe I have complimented hair and attire before ("love the boots"). However, I had a lady get ornery at me once over my use of "he" and "his" instead of "she" and "hers." To her, I'm the patriarchy. Wildfires rarely burn only rotten wood.
It's weird. All this came out quite a while ago... a couple of years, at least. Tig Notaro talked about it openly, and when she was pressed as to why Louis was Executive Producer on her TV show, she said he was Exec only in name, and did not have any meetings with Tig or daily role with the show. His name was on it for marketing purposes only. Bigger picture here, I think we may be focusing on the wrong thing, accusing men in powerful positions of sexual misconduct. This isn't honestly a surprise to anyone. After all, there is an entire branch of the porn industry that has taken the 'casting couch' known from all media (movies, TV, etc) and turned it into porn. There is also the weird dynamic of women's attraction to power. There is a type of woman who is turned on by men in power. They skew the man's understanding of what is OK, and the more powerful you are, the more of these women who throw themselves at you. We used to call them "groupies". How many times does the guitar player in the band or star of the action movie have a woman throw themselves on them, and choose to do crazy sexual shit, before the man starts to think shit like that is "normal"? In no way do I think the women being accused were groupies, or whatever. And I do not think the men should be easily let off the hook for their callous treatment of women. But we all know these upper echelons of celebrity were full of insane sexual situations, drugs, and a license to tread far beyond the "polite" boundaries most of us live within. And isn't that part of the attraction of celebrity/fame/riches? To be able to do shit other people can't? I think the issue we should be focusing on is not the individuals (except in the cases of abuse/rape/criminal activity), but on the culture that seems to think this is OK, and creates a bubble where this type of behavior is "just something that happens", as opposed to HOLY FUCKBALLS WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOU LUNATIC?!? Louis got naked and masturbated in front of women. I've done that. It can be sexy fun. But he did it without consideration of the time/place, or whether the woman wanted to or not. That is the real problem. And it's clearly a result of the culture these people exist in - a power bubble - that makes them think this behavior is acceptable. It's not like Louis got famous so he could take his weird sexual fantasy to previously unattainable heights. His weird sexual proclivities were legitimized by the culture he was living within. And that's bad for everyone from the execs to the consumers, not to mention the two people in the room at that moment.
I mean, yeah. But maybe an effective way to change the culture is to punish the people who take advantage of the culture. I think Louis CK is a great comedian. I think Kevin Spacey is a great actor. But maybe them losing their careers is what needs to happen to let others in their position know not to do this shit
Yeah, punishment has its place, too. But abuse of power should be expected. We are monkeys and we use what power we have to dominate others. It's just what we are wired to do. What we need to do is ensure those in power know their are repercussions for abusing their powerful positions in inappropriate ways. But... that means we now need to report it to someone MORE powerful, who can then stomp down the powerful one that is abusing their power. And we are back to the beginning again...
Accepting that these things happen is a great way to preserve the status quo. If you want to change the culture then you have to demonstrate the repercussions. The reason people can abuse power is that the victims are afraid to come forward because they're in a less powerful position. Generally speaking. If Harvey Weinstien harassed Angelina Jolie while she was the most prominent female in Hollywood then that's not uniformly true. But you could explain that by saying she accepted it because it's the behavior she dealt with as she moved through the industry. I think there are many problems that we are in the position to address at this point in history and they will probably take a culture shift. We've done that before and it was very difficult. Punishment is useful, not my preferred method but I can see its utility here. Accepting that certain things will happen is the best way to preserve the culture. You can accept them while at the same time saying they're unacceptable. I think that's what you're getting at. Like here in the US racism is generally accepted as unacceptable. That doesn't mean it's gone, it just means people who engage in that are more careful about it and it's maybe not as openly exposed as it once was. The racists clump together where they feel their views are accepted. We don't have as much overt racism in casual society as we once did. The dynamic of men and women is trying to change to disallow this type of sexism but the idea that women are inferior and subservient is deeply entrenched in society to the point where women accept it and also don't even notice certain aspects of it because they're not seen as examples of sexism but rather just culture at large and how it will always be. It takes bravery to stand up against individuals and also societal norms and that's what happened in the Civil Rights Movement and that's what can happen in the near future. Maybe
If Harvey Weinstein harassed Angelina Jolie while she was the most prominent female in Hollywood, it would have been done to prove that Harvey Weinstein was more powerful than the most prominent female in Hollywood. Nonconsentual sexual acts are about power. "I'm more powerful than you, I don't need your consent." "I'm more powerful than you, I can steamroller you into consent." "I'm more powerful than you, I can convince the world you gave consent." goobster is not wrong - the structure in place gave that power to men. What we're observing is a challenge to that structure. Here's a guess: NBC did not run the Weinstein story, even knowing it was right, even knowing it was morally imperative, even knowing history would be on their side. They did not run it because they knew that if they were to fire the first volley, they would be consumed by an Inquisition that would have destroyed their internal culture, consumed their reporting, and dominated their dialog for the next two to five years. So they sat on it, made it go away, and chose to be in the position of reacting rather than acting. The system is in dire need of change. It has been forever. But the first insider that speaks up is gonna get shot. When the corruption is self-supporting the only way to take it down is external force, and it's been such a chummy and insular community that the external forces couldn't get close enough to care. I'll also say that liberals care about this shit. Conservatives don't. If liberals weren't looking to fight with anything they could defeat, they still wouldn't do anything.Generally speaking. If Harvey Weinstien harassed Angelina Jolie while she was the most prominent female in Hollywood then that's not uniformly true.
I'm with ya, man. But I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. Women in power positions also abuse their power. (See: the entire fashion industry, for example.) It's weird. I'm in two conversations on Hubski right now that both have the same problem: 1. They focus on the SYMPTOM 2. They deny the existence of the actual problem. In both the Guns Issue and the Abuse of Power issue, the gun and the abuser are only the most visible symptom of the actual underlying problem. In guns, it is The Problem of the Angry White Man, and in Power it is the problem of Power Conferring Immunity. Sexist men in power?!? That is SHOCKING! Shocking, I say! Powerless angry white men exert their power via guns, while powerful old and ugly men force pretty women to have sex with them to get ahead. Hm. I'm seeing a pattern here...
It's false equivalency to bring up women in power. They're not as numerous so it's not such an entrenched problem. The issue is men in power abusing it and the reasons that make it difficult to come forward and the culture that you said needs to change. People in power will always abuse power. I've seen people with tiny little bits of power over inconsequential things get all self important and abuse something that's meaningless to most everyone. It confuses the issue when people look for exceptions to an issue that isn't related to the issue but seems so. The issue is sexual harassment by men in power being pervasive in Hollywood and really the world as a whole. Yes, women can do similar things but it's not so common as to become a talking point in a discussion about men jerking off in front of women only because they can.
So... what kind of a door to sexual-harassment hell did Weinstein open? What happened that allowed so many to finally be publicly accused?
All it took was for one voice to speak up? You know many problems in the world are solvable after you see an avalanche like this being made by a small group of people willing to speak candidly.
No, people have spoken out before so it’s really been more like a slow growing rumble that’s finally caused a big explosion. Every time this kind of thing is in the news it rubs at all the people who are affected and relate to the person who spoke out. Normally it’s out of the news quickly enough that these people can retreat for a little while and go on with their lives. This time it just kept going and things snowballed. What surprised me is that two men didn’t even try to deny it. I’m stuck between thinking this is a good thing and wondering how untouchable they must feel. I mean sure maybe they are consumed by guilt and feel the need to come clean but I don’t know. Maybe it’s the pessimist in me but I wonder if they thought people would forgive them for being honest and it wouldn’t destroy their careers.