Couldn't agree more! We do takedown defense (as well as other grabs, etc.) as a regular part of our training regimen, and even sometimes work on being on the ground just in case. Murphy's law and all that. My sifu emphasized both the fear factor in being on the ground, but also that the same training we do for when we're on our feet applies just as well on the ground. I will say we had a guy with years of BJJ from some serious schools come in who was unable to get most of us on the ground (those of us with enough training under our belts, at least). He also told us he had to go ice his knees afterwards since we don't use mats. But again, we emphasize that someone should get lit up long before they get to you, and even if they make contact they shouldn't get you off your feet. With enough training, it works. Another story. I've been at my current school about 6 years. I had previously trained at a Wing Chun school back around 2000, and was there about a year. I stopped when I moved to college. About a year or two after that, I tried BJJ a little bit. Honestly, I was not impressed. I couldn't stop myself from being taken down, but because of the relaxation from my Wing Chun training, I was pretty much impervious to joint locks. And this was my ~1 year of Wing Chun against people with like 3 years+ of BJJ. I'd imagine the guys who'd been doing it longer would've been able to do more, don't get me wrong, but even then I don't know how well it really would've worked (and that's without me counterattacking at all to boot). I've done aikido as well, but with any of the grappling/throw arts, they only work if the opponent gives you a lever. Levers come from tension. Most people don't learn how to relax in a fight (It's incredibly hard), so most people will give them. But, I did notice that none of those arts could really handle a punch very well. The guy I mentioned earlier even said they assume in their training that they're going to take some hits while they close to grappling range, which is insane. What if the guy has a knife, like you described? What if he hits like some of the guys I train with (Wing Chun punches are a whole different animal)? What if there's 3 of them? So my experience with the grappling arts is that they're fine for competition, and fine against someone who doesn't know what they're doing. But real life scenarios are a whole different ballgame.how much grappling experience have you had?
So you and I have some different thoughts on things, which is cool, so don't take my disagreeing with you as dogging on you, because you're a pretty cool guy. Here are my thoughts on some of the things you post . . . Honestly? I'm not surprised the BJJ practitioner had trouble taking you guys down. BJJ has garbage training when it comes to take downs. The running gag for BJJ is to land on your back and hope the other guy takes the bait. Someone who practices Judo, Olympic, or Folkstyle wrestling though? They'd be a bit more to handle. That said, if you do mix it up with a BJJ practitioner when you're on the ground, they stand a pretty decent chance. Those guys drill hard. Lighting a guy up with a flurry of blows isn't guaranteed to stop them. The human body is actually surprisingly resilient for being such a fragile machine and it can take a load of punishment and keep on going. At the same time, developing good, consistent knockout power is extremely hard to do, especially if you're a smaller person. That's part of the reason why, even on the professional level, in MMA and Boxing most fights in the lighter weight classes often go to decision. If being able to light a person up was good enough, no one would focus on grappling in MMA because no one would risk take down attempts. I'm a bit on the fence with BJJ. On the one hand, I think its actually a pretty deep grappling system. On the other hand though, I think the competition minded training and the rulesets for said competition have somewhat limited the applicability of the style. While it's nowhere near as bad as fencing for example, there are similar signs of evolution where when you train for a certain ruleset it suddenly becomes a min-max development and what you end up with is a style with a few holes that need to be filled back in. As for relaxing, it only gets you so far. If someone has you in a proper armbar? Relaxig isn't gonna save you. Heel hook and rear naked choke? Same. There are limits to how the body can move and forcing it to move in ways its not supposed to doesn't end well. I don't usually say this about most martial arts, but for Aikido, I will. It's mostly garbage. Aikido is based with very linear attacks in mind and it is trained with compliant opponents in mind. In reality against people both trained and untrained, most fighting is non-linear, non-simplified combos, and nobody is gonna just let you throw them around. If you want something that's in the spirit of Aikido but actually works relatively decently, Judo is a much better alternative. See my previous statement about rulesets and such. That said, while an art isn't designed to handle a punch well, once again the human body is surprisingly resilient and can take multiple blows quite easily, especially when the adrenaline is flowing. So someone could quite well get into clinching range, even while taking punches, and get a takedown. So having that mentality isn't really insane, but actually quite realistic. What they're doing is allowing themselves to overcome a very real barrier, the fear of getting hit. One hit knockouts are rare. Getting hit two or three times and having your body shut down is even rarer. Once people realize that getting hit hurts, but otherwise isn't that bad, that fear disappears quite quickly and what you end up with is a person you don't really wanna mess with. Do whatever you need to de-escalate the situation, otherwise you're likely fucked, even with martial arts training. That's true for all martial arts. ;)We do takedown defense (as well as other grabs, etc.) as a regular part of our training regimen, and even sometimes work on being on the ground just in case. Murphy's law and all that. My sifu emphasized both the fear factor in being on the ground, but also that the same training we do for when we're on our feet applies just as well on the ground. I will say we had a guy with years of BJJ from some serious schools come in who was unable to get most of us on the ground.
We emphasize that someone should get lit up long before they get to you, and even if they make contact they shouldn't get you off your feet. With enough training, it works.
About a year or two after that, I tried BJJ a little bit. Honestly, I was not impressed. I couldn't stop myself from being taken down, but because of the relaxation from my Wing Chun training, I was pretty much impervious to joint locks. And this was my ~1 year of Wing Chun against people with like 3 years+ of BJJ.
I've done aikido as well, but with any of the grappling/throw arts, they only work if the opponent gives you a lever. Levers come from tension. Most people don't learn how to relax in a fight (It's incredibly hard), so most people will give them.
But, I did notice that none of those arts could really handle a punch very well. The guy I mentioned earlier even said they assume in their training that they're going to take some hits while they close to grappling range, which is insane.
What if the guy has a knife, like you described? What if he hits like some of the guys I train with (Wing Chun punches are a whole different animal)? What if there's 3 of them?
So my experience with the grappling arts is that they're fine for competition, and fine against someone who doesn't know what they're doing. But real life scenarios are a whole different ballgame.
Disagreement is fine...I'm happy with where I am, so am not worried about criticism :) I understand all of what you're saying, but really we're going to be talking past each other since we both have such different experiences. Honestly I wouldn't believe half the things I've been told about kung fu if I hadn't seen (and been on the receiving end of) what I have.
We're not talking past each other. We're sharing our experiences, there's a huge difference. I know you talked about how you're concerned about how people really dig their heels in the ground when it comes to discussing martial arts and I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm no stranger to r/martialarts and I'm no stranger to places like Sherdog forums. Don't worry. You're not gonna get that from me here and you're probably not gonna get that from most Hubski users, as I think the majority of them don't take much interest in these kinds of conversations. With the exception of maybe two martial arts that I can think of off the top of my head (Aikido and Systema in case you're curious) I think that the majority of martial arts have a lot of value to them. They all have their benefits and they all have their drawbacks. When you talk martial arts with me, what you will get is three things. One, mad respect for you participation in any martial art and your desire to deepen your knowledge and improve your body. For health reasons that I won't go into, I'm forever sidelined from martial arts and it fucking kills me. You have absolutely no idea what I'd be willing to give to be able to put on my boxing gloves and pick up where I left off. The fact that you're here, actively participating in Wing Chun and talking to me about it makes me equal parts excited and jealous. You keep doing what you're doing bro, you won't see me saying "Lol. Wing Chun sucks. It can't hold up against core MMA styles." You'll see that on Sherdog and sometimes r/martialarts. You won't see that from me. Two, an active desire to learn from you and anyone else who wants to share as well as share what I've learned and observed. How many boxing and MMA fans do you know of that know what Chi Sau is? If you post a Wing Chung technique video, you bet your ass I'm gonna watch it, ask you questions, and give my opinions. I love this shit. Three, a practical outlook on what various styles can and can't do. Every style out there has their merits and every style out there has serious drawbacks. If you want to debate the merits of street vs. the ring, sure, lets debate them. Grappling vs. striking? Absolutely. Wanna talk about various weapons from various cultures? You have me hook, line, and sinker. I love them all, and I love discussing them all, but I also love being realistic. If someone came to me and said "I am a three time trophy winner for my weight class in Judo so I'm confident I could take on any Muay Thai fighter no problem at all" I'd say "Your accomplishments are fantastic, keep it up. Let's talk though, about Muay Thai and why you feel the way you feel. Your expectations might be a bit up there." So we're disagreeing, but once again, don't think it's me dogging on you and don't think it's me not listening to what you're saying. You have me at all ears. If you didn't, you'd have found me immediately dismissive, not trying to go in depth discussing why Mr. BJJ had difficulty taking you and your peers down. You oughta be proud of that and what your Sifu has taught you by the way. Stuffing a takedown is pretty difficult, even when your opponent doesn't know much of what they're doing.
I get what you're saying, and didn't take it as criticism or anything. I had started writing a much more point-by-point response, but kept falling back on "we do things that don't make sense unless you've seen them," so it got kind of repetitive :) What I posted was basically an (apparently inadequate) attempt to explain this. I'm also wary of ending up making a no true Scotsman fallacy. I'm also wary of explaining why we do things too much just because I don't necessarily know. I mean, I know a reason to do things, but I've only been training 6 years. There's still so much I don't know about how our system works, and every time I'll think I have something figured out someone will show me something that makes me realize how far off I was. Just the other day I had a new student ask how long I'd been training, and when I told him, he said something like "you must know it all then." I felt kind of bad for laughing at him :) But I want to emphasize that what I'm saying isn't necessarily everything, and there may be details that I either take for granted (possibly) or don't know (almost certain). But I'll give you an example of what I mean about it being tough to explain. You mentioned a couple of times about how the human body can take more punishment than we think. This is true as far as it goes, but no one hits like we do in Ving Tsun. Basic Newtonian physics tells us that for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, which means that a hard punch is going to put as much energy back down the arm of the puncher. When I see e.g. MMA on TV, it looks like they're on roller skates; everyone is almost falling over just from trying to strike each other. Boxers are typically much better about this, but even then there's some bouncing off people. A good Ving Tsun punch transfers as close to 100% of its energy into the target as is possible. We learn to maintain our connection to the ground, so you become an immovable object, and the only place for the energy to go is into the other person. This has two results. The first is that the punch almost literally hits you in the feels. The energy penetrates the surface in the way most people's punches don't generally, so you feel it on the inside. I've literally been punched in the chest and felt the impact in my back muscles. It also has a surprising emotional response...the first couple times I was at the point of being hit and really got lit up (proportional to my skill level), I went home with a case of the shakes like you get after a car accident. The body's response is just different. The other thing is it means that there's a structure between you and the opponent. So even if your punch against someone trying to tackle isn't enough to stop their momentum, they still can't actually get a good grip on you (with what they can get dependent on relative reach, obviously). The nice thing about this is that even if your "horse" (connection to the ground) doesn't hold, your whole body moves back, which means the other person doesn't actually get any closer. It's worth noting that this is a more advanced way of defending yourself. You have to have developed the accuracy to hit a moving target and the technique so that your arm and structure hold. I would try this with someone my size or smaller; someone bigger than me, I'd probably do something else. Hopefully as my kung fu gets older that'll be less and less of a restriction. Again, though, I completely understand why someone reading this would be skeptical. My explanation and actually feeling it work are two wildly different things. There is a lot of talk in the martial arts world, and my school's culture is to generally not engage in it very much (another reason why it feels kind of weird to me to explain all this). Our rule is to talk with the fists, since that's really the only way to know for sure if something works. But obviously you and I don't have that option, so this will have to do :)
Hey man, you've been doing Wing Chun for six years. At this point, you know that you go through cycles of confidence. One month you think you got things down pat. The next? You start to question what you really know. If you were to give me an explanation saying “this is why we punch the way we do based upon what I know” I'd take you for face value, though ask you questions if there was a discrepancy on my part from understanding. Logical fallacies suck, partly because I don't half understand them myself. My personal philosophy is if I try to be honest to myself and others, admitting when I'm wrong and deferring to the better judgment of others, I'll avoid those messes. As for what you know? Well, like you said, you've been doing Wing Chun for six years. I'm sure you got the basics down pat. . . . A good Ving Tsun punch transfers as close to 100% of its energy into the target as is possible. We learn to maintain our connection to the ground, so you become an immovable object, and the only place for the energy to go is into the other person. Eh. A good puncher is a good puncher. I'm gonna give you the benefit of a doubt here and say you know your stuff and I'm also gonna give Wing Chun the benefit of a doubt saying that there are at least some schools out there that know what they're doing. As for your claims as to being grounded, it reminds me of Hung Gar Kung Fu, which if I'm recalling correctly is a form of Kung Fu that relies very heavily on planted stances. Both styles, from what I know of them, throw very linear punches though there are variations, for example Wing Chun punches come from the center of the chest while Hung Gar punches tend to be from the sides. That said, I've never been by a Wing Chun punch and I've never been hit by a Hung Gar punch, but if you say you've felt power through them, I'm willing to believe you. Boxing punches, as you may or may not know, are a completely different animal. For about 95% of the punches thrown, the power is generated from the hips and also somewhat from footwork. When you watch baseball, watch the batter hit the ball. When he swings the bat, he swings with his whole body, using his hips to generate power. When you watch football, watch the quarterback throw the ball. When he throws, he's using his hips to generate power. When you watch a Muay Thai match, watch the Thai boxers throw their kicks. They're using their hips to generate power. Boxing is no different. It's something that is not only easy to use, but makes a massive, immediate difference in power generation. As for the power generated by boxing punches? It's something that is very, very real. This here is something that is used for all sorts of training exercises. It is thick, it is heavy, and it does a relatively decent job protecting the body. One of my coaches used to have an exercise that involved this body pad. In short, the person being trained would have to avoid getting hit through the use of footwork and angles for 10 minutes straight. 10 people would go after him, one a minute each. They could punch his body with any combination of jabs, crosses, hooks, and uppercuts while the trainee could only block and move away. After about a minute, you're already exhausted and you have nine more minutes to go. When a person who knows what they're doing lets loose, it's like you're not even wearing this pad at all. During this exercise I've had a 110 lb. teenager drop me to my knees with a well place hook. So I know what you mean when you say that Wing Chun has penetrating power, but trust me, it's definitely there in boxing as well. Most MMA fighters, especially in the small time organizations, can't strike for shit. There's a Pubski thread somewhere where I talked about wanting to get UFC Fightpass, but I'd prefer something similar for boxing instead. The amount of skill and finesse boxers have is a huge reason for this. Some people find boxing matches boring, those same people are the people that like seeing crazy hay makers and take downs being thrown. It's understandable. When done right, they can make for some exciting fights. A good fighter though, whether we're talking about boxing or bjj or muay thai or what have you, is a great thing to see. Every now and again, there will be boxing matches that air on regular TV. No cable or PPV needed. Next time one is on, I highly encourage you to watch it so you see just how crisp and composed boxers are. Back to the top. Most people aren't trained to punch. Period. Just like most people aren't trained to kick or grapple. Outside of a controlled situation, I would not want to stand in front of a person and take a punch whether they train in Wing Chun like you, or Boxing or Muay Thai or Kyokushin Karate or what have you. I've seen good punchers from all and they're all fantastic in their own ways. It's worth noting that this is a more advanced way of defending yourself. You have to have developed the accuracy to hit a moving target and the technique so that your arm and structure hold. I would try this with someone my size or smaller; someone bigger than me, I'd probably do something else. Hopefully as my kung fu gets older that'll be less and less of a restriction. Being accurate is nothing special. Boxers punch with amazing accuracy while maintaining their posture. Combined that with footwork and combinations that allow them to confuse their opponents and allow them to punch from blinding angles, it makes them pretty formidable. The same argument could be said for many martial arts. That said, I do want to nitpick something . . . One. Don't fight people outside of a controlled environment. Two, differences in size and reach are extremely difficult to overcome, no matter how skilled you are. That's why weight classes exist. Three. Don't fight people outside of a controlled environment. Four, the longer you train in Kung Fu or any martial art, the older you get. I don't know how old you are, but once you hit about 35 or so your body's ability to handle punishment starts to diminish. Five. Don't fight people outside of a controlled environment. The health and legal risks alone are too great to consider. School culture or no, I highly encourage you to talk with not only other practitioners of Wing Chun but other martial artists in general. Be open to the ideas of others to further your own understanding of yourself and your studies as well as the studies of others. If one day you say “Hmm, that Judo throw would be easy to incorporate using Wing Chun footwork” you owe it to yourself to find a Judoka to show you the throw. Most importantly, be open to questions and challenges. Doubt yourself. Doubt your teacher. Doubt others. Embrace your doubt to keep you humble and protect you from hubris. Embrace your doubt to motivate you to find the answers you need to better yourself. Doing Wing Chun for six years and wanting to continue to do it is amazing. Personally though, if I were you, I'd continue to do Wing Chun and feel it was way past the time to pick something else to go along with it. Look at your new style from the perspective on Wing Chun. Look at your Wing Chun from the perspective of your new style. Learn to appreciate both. The number of martial artists who stick with one style for life is surprisingly low. If we ever get the chance to meet, I'd love you to show me how to chain punch.I had started writing a much more point-by-point response, but kept falling back on "we do things that don't make sense unless you've seen them," so it got kind of repetitive :) What I posted was basically an (apparently inadequate) attempt to explain this.
I'm also wary of ending up making a no true Scotsman fallacy. I'm also wary of explaining why we do things too much just because I don't necessarily know.
But I'll give you an example of what I mean about it being tough to explain. You mentioned a couple of times about how the human body can take more punishment than we think. This is true as far as it goes, but no one hits like we do in Ving Tsun. Basic Newtonian physics tells us that for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, which means that a hard punch is going to put as much energy back down the arm of the puncher.
When I see e.g. MMA on TV, it looks like they're on roller skates; everyone is almost falling over just from trying to strike each other.
This has two results. The first is that the punch almost literally hits you in the feels. The energy penetrates the surface in the way most people's punches don't generally, so you feel it on the inside. I've literally been punched in the chest and felt the impact in my back muscles. It also has a surprising emotional response...the first couple times I was at the point of being hit and really got lit up (proportional to my skill level), I went home with a case of the shakes like you get after a car accident. The body's response is just different.
The other thing is it means that there's a structure between you and the opponent. So even if your punch against someone trying to tackle isn't enough to stop their momentum, they still can't actually get a good grip on you (with what they can get dependent on relative reach, obviously). The nice thing about this is that even if your "horse" (connection to the ground) doesn't hold, your whole body moves back, which means the other person doesn't actually get any closer.
I would try this with someone my size or smaller; someone bigger than me, I'd probably do something else. Hopefully as my kung fu gets older that'll be less and less of a restriction.
There is a lot of talk in the martial arts world, and my school's culture is to generally not engage in it very much (another reason why it feels kind of weird to me to explain all this).
But obviously you and I don't have that option, so this will have to do :)
Again, I agree with most of what you're saying. Just a couple of things. Sure. But boxers have to rely on that hip pivot to generate that kind of power. We don't (but can add it in to hit harder still). It also means we can hit that hard more times within the same timeframe (obviously depending on training level). That's never the plan, but the whole reason I study kung fu is because it may not always be up to me. Not as true as you might think. I've gotten totally crushed by women half my size. At the last seminar I went to, I had a 60+-year-old man with both hips replaced go through me like I wasn't there. And I'm not a small guy (6'5", 240#). Nope. I will if I ever come across something that Ving Tsun doesn't have an answer for, but that hasn't happened yet. People train multiple martial arts because they (or their teacher, or his teacher, or someone) didn't master the first one. The doubt you speak of is indeed critical, and ever-present. power generated by boxing punches?
One. Don't fight people outside of a controlled environment.
Two, differences in size and reach are extremely difficult to overcome, no matter how skilled you are.
I'd continue to do Wing Chun and feel it was way past the time to pick something else to go along with it.