This is the point that sticks my craw, and that of Sam Harris. They are telling us why they are killing. They tell us why they hate us. And we won't grant them the dignity we granted the Nazis, or any other historic enemy. Were Genghis Khan's contemporary enemies trying to rationalize and excuse his behavior? I don't believe that it is controversial to say that fundamentalist, extremist Islam is murderously violent. I don't believe that it is controversial to say that modern society (Making sweeping generalizations of 'The West') is not a good framework for helping young people with lots of potential (Potential for good or ill) find meaning that satisfies. I think that religion offers that, sometimes well, sometimes poorly, but fundamentalists usually promise a lot more than moderates.While terrorists often invoke God, many social scientists are skeptical religious extremism can explain why people commit acts of terror
You're putting a lot of words in my mouth. To quote one of my favorite characters in all of fiction 'Let's take that piece at a time.' I'm not going to speak in defense of Sam Harris, he defends himself well enough. I will say that he wholeheartedly encourages knowledge of one's enemies. And he also encourages taking them at their word. Daesh, and Saudi Arabia are living, breathing, decapitating examples of what a Muslim theocracy looks like. That is not up for debate. They take a literalist interpretation of the Quran and Hadith, and practice it upon the people they govern, and their enemies in the field. The majority of Muslims alive and practicing today, that 99% that you quote without citation, are not radical, extremist, or fundamentalist. I am not talking about them, just like I am not talking about your average feel-good new testament focused jesus freak when I talk about fundamentalist, extremist Christianity The current hot conflict against I-Fuck-Goatsis and the ongoing cold war against Wahabism preached by the Saudi's are real, but there is no war against Islam, except in small isolated incidents perpetrated by bigots. (See, preacher who smeared shit on a Quran in front of a mosque) I completely agree that the carpet bombing of Raqqa would be a terrible terrible idea, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I dehumanize no one because of their religious identity, I dehumanize violent savages who want to impose bronze age theocracy on the rest of polite society. That group includes Daesh and the KKK. I dehumanize those who would defend such savagery from a position of 'Progressive Tolerance.' I am unashamedly Islamophobic. I'm equally unashamed of being Christianophobic, Hinduphobic, and whatever one would call the fear of Scientology. These ideas (Among others) have led to unmeasured human suffering that has been completely sanctioned by socio-culturally relevant moral authorities of their time. Second piece, we're just going to have to disagree. Looking at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, 'The West' is good at providing air that won't kill you outright, an overabundance of calories, and a place to sleep that is comparatively safe from interpersonal violence. I finished this book recently, and it presented a very compelling and fact-based case for part of your argument of Statistically, the poorest people alive today live better lives, with more food, better medical care, more knowledge about the world and more Stuff, than nobility of centuries past. I would wholeheartedly agree that we are better able to keep people alive, and at a higher material quality of life for a higher percentage than ever before. But that comes with a price, distractions. Notice that in my original comment that I didn't say I was trying to say (Albeit ineffectively) that our society is not set up to help young people with lots of potential self-actualize. Start with the base assumption that most people don't draw existential satisfaction from their job. Where do they get it from? For some people it's found in their hobbies (Not a lot of people I imagine) others get it from their family (Parenthood being a big factor, I think) but lots of people address their existential angst through religion. As a former near-fundie I can tell you, there's definitely a peace of mind that comes from believing that there is somebody with a plan at the wheel. This is where I draw a lot from Harris, because of one big point, and I want you to say it out loud with me. I'll say it again for those in the back Why does a Christian tithe 10% of his earnings to his church? Better yet, lemme rephrase that because there are plenty of 'Social' or 'Cultural' Christians who attend services because of social benefit/community rather than any genuine belief in the supernatural. Why does a (True!) Christian tithe to his church? Because of a deep and genuine belief that his God has commanded him to do so. Sure it feels good, if your church does good things with that money, or just because charity usually feels pretty good. But the initial push is a divine commandment that the individual believes is TRUE. How does this apply to Islam, specifically the militant, extremist, radical branch practiced by Daesh? Check this little test out, yes it came from reddit In the Bible, the Hebrew God (Same guy Muslims worship) demands the violent slaughter, rape and enslavement of people. He is pretty graphic about how he wants this accomplished, and what is to be done with the war-bride chattel and slaves taken afterwards. Yes the New Testament pretties some of that up, but the short version is, Yahweh wants BLOOD and LOTS of it. Turns out, the Quran has a lot of similar verses. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, calls for the violent murder of apostates, things like that. Those are in the book and I can sit here and cite suras at you if you really want, but I'll move on for now. Fundamentalist Christians and Fundamentalist Muslims agree on a lot of things. Things like 'Kill all homosexuals' among others. That's because those commandments are Fundamental to the religion. That 99% of nonviolent Muslims you cite are like the 99% of Christians who are IGNORING WHAT THE BOOK TELLS THEM. They are cafeteria Christians and cafeteria Muslims. They take the bits they like, that give them reason to get out of bed in the morning or comfort them when they are sad, and ditch the rest, or else explain it away with some theological gymnastics. Daesh is what happens when you take the whole book at face value. The Westboro Baptist Church is what happens when you take the whole book at face value. You know who can stop angry young Muslim men from running off to join a radical Muslim movement? Their religious leadership, the Imams and lay-leadership of their mosques. It sure as hell won't be psychologists.Rather, I assert that it's the best society for serving that purpose that has existed so far in this history of the world.
SELF-ACTUALIZATION IS IMPOSSIBLE IN THE WEST NOW BUT WE USED TO BE ABLE TO DO IT WAY BETTER
BELIEF GUIDES BEHAVIOR
BELIEF
GUIDES
BEHAVIOR
This discussion is over because you refuse to believe that someone is actually capable of holding the beliefs that Daesh fighters do. You refuse to grant them the dignity of personal agency, and you want to paint murderers and child rapists as victims. I appreciate the compliment at the end, but part of being a 'thoughtful human being' is knowing when to put down a rabid dog.
Here's where rubber meets the road. I believe that they are opposed. An individual is either responsible for their actions, or they are not. They are a sane, mature, reasonable adult, or they are not. There is a small number of individuals who are seeking direct revenge against the US for their slain family members. Harris calls this a 'justifiable grievance.' However this group does not compose the majority, or even an influential bloc within Daesh. Daesh is primarily composed of mature adult males who are responsible for their own decisions. They have read the Quran and Hadith (More likely they have listened to a radical Imam), and their interpretation of those texts, or their Imam's interpretation of those texts, leads them to believe that they are justified in attempting to create a global caliphate. Not only justified, but compelled by holy commandment. They believe that they are bringing about the end times. They are 'victims' as much as a kid who grows up in a meth and incest riddled trailer park in west virginia is a 'victim.' What are you attempting to convince me of? That members of Daesh are good people? Edit* I'm adding a hypothetical here because I think it's important to illustrate the insanity of any 'moderate' position on Daesh. Lets say Jihadi John moves in next door. He has 4 'wives' ages 12 to 30, who are never allowed out of his house except under his direct supervision, who are regularly sexually and physically abused, and actively voicing their displeasure and attempting to leave him, but don't because he will kill them to maintain his honor. Are you allowed to say anything about him or his character? By your logic, no, because he's a victim. He doesn't know any better, it's how he was raised. Lets take it a step further, lets say he comes knocking on your door, and says if you don't get your wife to quit her job, start wearing a niqab, and both of you don't start praying a lot more, loudly, in Arabic, he will come into your house in the middle of the night with other men who share his beliefs, and kill you. What's the reasonable response? It might seem like I'm being hyperbolic, but that's the reality of people living in that area of the world. Join I-fuck-goatsis and their interpretation of Islam, or die.Those aren't diametrically opposed.
I interpreted it a little differently from you in that I think what the author was attempting to say is that it's not necessarily the actual cause(in this case Islam) that is attractive but the perceived benefits of joining any extremist or radical movement. Whether that is a feeling of purpose, a feeling of belonging, or any other reason someone might join a cult. I am the type of person that believes even if we never had religion extremist groups would form over different things so I think it's a good idea to investigate what exactly people find attractive about extremism.
Suppose we acknowledge that "fundamentalist, extremist Islam is murderously violent," as you say. There can still be further questions about the social and psychological factors that lead young people to join it. Similarly Nazis can tell us what they believe in and are fighting for, but we can still ask, "Why was Nazism attractive to so many people?" Knowing what the ideology is and how it leads people to behave doesn't wholly answer the question of why people are attracted to that ideology and its movement. That said, you do have a point. It's kind of disingenous of western society to feign ignorance of what could possibly make fundamentalism attractive. Mainstream western society, in its public face at least, tends to celebrate only a few rather flimsy and unconvincing purposes in life - money, fame, power. If you're the kind of person who finds all they look for in life under those categories, good for you. But if that's not you then you'll have a much harder time finding a purpose and, if you do find a purpose, remaining convinced that it's a valid one given that society doesn't overtly celebrate it (and may even call it foolish or a waste of time if it doesn't produce money, fame or power). If you're not a particularly subtle or patient person, as young people often aren't, then this leaves you with a painful gap or an aching self-doubt where the meaning should go. Crude ideologies with obvious promises of purpose can step into this void more quickly and readily than more truthful but less garishly impressive approaches to life. It's to be expected that young, energetic and impatient people will be disproportionately drawn to them.
I can agree with that. But I think a lot of those factors are well known. Poverty, social ostracism and failure of immigrant cultures to integrate with their host cultures, not to mention the continual stream of rabid Wahabi clerics and religious material flowing freely from Saudi. This is more my point.There can still be further questions about the social and psychological factors that lead young people to join it.
But if that's not you then you'll have a much harder time finding a purpose and, if you do find a purpose, remaining convinced that it's a valid one given that society doesn't overtly celebrate it (and may even call it foolish or a waste of time if it doesn't produce money, fame or power).