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comment by disbell
disbell  ·  3397 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: It's a White Man's Internet

You didn't get to East Asia, but do you mind if I do? I lived in Korea for a few years and my wife is Korean.

Things work a bit differently than in the UAE, though there are some similarities, based on your description. The ethnic Korean majority is the top of the heap. After that, it's really hard to say... within that majority, men definitely have a couple rungs on women. Among minorities, "westerners" or people from developed countries (this would include places like Japan or Taiwan, I think) are at the top of the heap (and among them, whites are generally treated better than black, brown, or Asian westerners). Yet its hard to say that "white privilege" applies- while whites in Korea do have certain privileges compared to say, laborers from Cambodia, it's clear that Korean males run the show- privilege is based on power.

Anyway, a theme throughout East Asia in "race" relations is ethno-nationalism (ethnicity is tied to national identity) and a dynamic relationship between economic and racial/ethnic status of outsiders. A black American would be somewhat more positively viewed than a black African in many such countries. A Thai American might have to deal with more shit in Japan than a white American (including stuff like "so... where are you really from?"), but will probably have a bit more social status than a Thai-Thai.

So on that note, I would agree, to a small degree, with sentiments expressed in this topic that American race relations don't necessarily apply to a global discussion of race. "It's a white man's world" requires some qualification (ethnic minorities in China might say it's a Han man's world), but we can certainly say "It's a white man's country". But that's kind of nitpicking, and I think the original post is spot-on to frame the issue in the US.





pyrrhonic  ·  3397 days ago  ·  link  ·  

In the case of Korea you also have to take geopolitics into account. America's military presence makes a weird hierarchy. Several GIs have literally gotten away with murder. But even if you're a white civilian you get get deported just for a fist fight.

Something I hadn't considered before I went to Korea was the difference that various East Asians are viewed there. In retrospect it's not too surprising, but still quite a shock coming from the States. There's an intense anti-Japanese sentiment, and yet a grudging respect. Whereas Chinese, Filipinos and SE Asians aren't very highly regarded, but also not hated.

There's also the subtle colorism in Korea. Fair skin is supposedly more beautiful. I'm sure this effects a lot of people there on an unconscious level.

Every so often there's TEFL job listings that explicitly say "whites only" need apply. I'm rather encouraged that so many white expats have spoken up about it. It's still so strange to me that someone from Asian descent is automatically not considered a "real" American/Canadian/etc. And they'll get laughed at for not speaking 100% perfect Korean whereas whites sometimes get praised for saying 안녕하세요.

disbell  ·  3397 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think the American military presence is much less of a factor. The Army has gotten better about managing the young enlisted crowd, and anymore there's a greater likelihood that off-base shenanigans gets off-base punishments. And to be really blunt, GIs, especially enlisted, are viewed pretty low in comparison to other OECD foreigners by Koreans... just about the bottom of the developed-world heap. It used to be much worse, in terms of both how some GIs got away with stuff and general tensions between GIs and locals. In the 70s, there was a major riot in/near Itaewon, which started with black GIs not being provided the same services (as well as "services", ahem) as white GIs.

The colorism you brought up is interesting. Yeah, it exists, but I wouldn't say that it has a major impact all on its own. It's more or less something that kids tease each other about, and less directly, might play some role with the extreme importance of outward appearance in Korea (pictures on resumes, etc). It's also important to note that this colorism has just about nothing at all to do with white people; it's been considered a mark of beauty and class in Korea for centuries (kind of like it used to be in Europe, where you didn't want to identify as a tanned laborer).

The TEFL thing also requires a little more nuance. Those shitty job listings are written by the privileged majority, and they're also among the worst jobs. Korean Americans get the shaft there, but then again Korean Americans get easy access to a much better visa. Interestingly, Irish and other native speakers (white or otherwise) often have doors closed based on their accent- some schools specifically want a North American (most common) or RP-British teacher. We can connect all this back to ethno-nationalism (even ethno-linguistic-nationalism?), as language teaching visas in Korea are restricted to countries where some bureaucatic process has decided real native speakers come from- generally, wealthy(-ish) countries with a visible white population. So South Africans, regardless of what language they actually learned first, are in (including black and brown, though much less common in practice), while Indians and Phillipinos are out- again, you can see some blurry lines between race and economic status.

pyrrhonic  ·  3396 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Wow, never heard about that riot before. I was also thinking about resumes re: colorism. Tho with the way they touch the photos up, I'm sure it not as much of a prejudicial point as it could be. I've noticed in other parts of Asia not even Ireland or S. Africa are considered "real" native English countries.

Herunar  ·  3397 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yes, ethno-nationalism is a pretty huge theme in race-relations throughout East Asia, the Middle East and heck even bits of Europe too. You really hit the nail on the head on that one.