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comment by o11c
o11c  ·  3414 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The problem with Github's Open Code of Conduct

    I don't think it makes sense to crow about abuse of the CoC until it actually starts happening.

Except that we can see what they've done in the past, e.g. the whole Django master/slave fiasco, and the general brigading mindset.

I'm sure that GitHub will come up with a plan for this in the long run, but I am concerned that this move will cause unnecessary negative attention in the meantime.

Mostly, I am concerned because any discussion about the CoC is being censored on Reddit right now.





empty  ·  3413 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The brigading mindset is dying out. The backlash from Gamergate has exposed some of the excess and lack of self-regulation of "SJW brigading". Ultimately it's a fine tradeoff. I'd rather that the average internet troll be anti-sexist and anti-racist, than the sort of shithead troll that's been the standard for the last 25 years.

Think about it. There's always going to be angry people on the internet who don't mind offending people. Wouldn't you rather they be the sort that, on the whole, do some net social good? Making nerdy white guys feel guilty about how sexist and racist they are is a GOOD THING.

o11c  ·  3412 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    The brigading mindset is dying out.

I really, really, wish that were true.

Certainly, a lot more people are aware of how harmful it can be. But as it always is, that also means a few more people are aware of just how much disruption a small group can do.

Mind, I think that increased awareness of the problem is a step forward. But "dying out" is not in the foreseeable future yet.

aidrocsid  ·  3413 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't think trivializing important problems by using them for fodder to make fun of people on the internet and pat one another on the back is socially positive. If anything it makes actual progress harder.

At least with racist trolls you've got a clear sort of Goofus and Gallant scenario. These people are just muddying actual legitimate issues because it's fun to laugh at neckbeards. I don't know about you, but when assholes are assholes to me it doesn't make me feel bad about myself, it makes me annoyed that there are assholes.

empty  ·  3413 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What about making fun of racists trivializes racism?

    These people are just muddying actual legitimate issues

How? And for which groups are the issues being muddied? What I mean is, who is actually confused?

aidrocsid  ·  3412 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well I wasn't really referring to racism specifically. People abusing ideals of social justice to prop themselves up by arbitrarily deriding other people as ideologically impure doesn't constitute actual social justice advocacy, especially when they pack their accusations into a blunderbuss and fire at random. Just running about calling people sexist or racist for whatever reasons you can construct isn't social justice activism. Moreover, calling someone a racist or sexist doesn't make them racist or sexist.

If a user joined Hubski and started following you around saying you're a big old homophobe (you personally), that's not something that would help gay and bi people. Why? Because unless I've sorely misjudged you you're not a homophobe. Calling out legitimate bigotry is just dandy, but pointing out bigotry where it doesn't exist is just a distraction. Instead of being a positive force for social change, your obnoxious new follower is the boy who cried homophobic wolf.

To put it another way, you do not gain the affection of the fire department by running around town pulling all the fire alarms. Fire alarms are for identifying fires so they can be extinguished, not boosting egos and providing opportunities to ogle firemen.

    How? And for which groups are the issues being muddied? What I mean is, who is actually confused?

How? Because if we're constantly hearing groundless accusations of bigotry, accusations of bigotry don't mean much. To use the example of racism, if racism means that a person or a population were mistreated or systematically denied resources because of their race that's something people can get behind. If racism means that some people at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts were wearing kimono in front of pictures of people wearing kimono (something that is, not frowned upon by Japanese culture, foreigners wearing kimono is seen as a positive sign of cultural appreciation) then significantly less people are going to be concerned with that. The reason should be obvious. The former are legitimate concerns and the later is ridiculous nonsense born out of ignorance. When you call white people in kimono racist cultural appropriators, you're diminishing the significance of the term. If a woman in a kimono is racist, suddenly way fewer people care about racism as a whole. Maybe they care about subtypes or racism that include basically the contemporary definition of racism, but they won't care about the version that extends to hypersensitivity to things like 'cultural appropriation'.

And who does this confusion affect? All the people who don't recognize the significance of racism in the modern social context. Furthermore, possibly people who are subtly racist themselves but don't really see it. If racism is still a problem, which I certainly would say it is, then we ought to expect that there are quite a decent number of these people. If we want change and we want it soon, they're the ones who need to reconsider things.

What's better for that? A racist troll that looks like a moronic caricature of their own bias or a "social justice" troll who looks like a moronic caricature of a legitimate social justice activist?

user-inactivated  ·  3413 days ago  ·  link  ·  
This comment has been deleted.
o11c  ·  3412 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    TBH, what gets called "SJW" brigading is a lot of the times a good instance of Poe's Law. Especially when people are going around saying "HEY LOOK AT THIS SJW ON TUMBLR" --mostly, Poe's Law.

In the general case? I agree, most people who talk about "SJW" are not talking about anything useful.

But in the specific case I mentioned of the Django master/slave terminology problem? That's a case where enough important people agreed that the "problem" was important enough to violate the accurate, industry-standard terminology and cause friction any time people move or interact between projects.

I would honestly not be surprised if the constant low-level irritation at not using the standard terminology costs, in the long run, more contributor effort than those few who get offended at mere use of the terms "master" and "slave" in a nonhuman, accurate, context.

tla  ·  3413 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Mostly, I am concerned because any discussion about the CoC is being censored on Reddit right now.

Lol what really? I'm not doubting that it's possible but I want to see this. I'm going to the supermarket soon, I'll pick up some popcorn.

o11c  ·  3412 days ago  ·  link  ·  

https://np.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3e5c6f/why_the_open_code_of_conduct_isnt_for_me/

And note that /u/spez, the new/old CEO, is a moderator specifically of that forum.