What you're talking about is the feminist theory of "Patriarchy hurts men too". It's not a new concept to contemporary waves of feminism, it's been around for decades, and it is crucial to these waves. People who don't subscribe to this theory are bad at feminism. Just like they're bad at feminism if they disregard the plight of trans folk, or other Gender and Sexual Minorities as irrelevant. Just like they're bad at feminism if they disregard how race amplifies non-racial inequalities. These are all things that appeared in Second Wave feminism. That doesn't make earlier feminism irrelevant, it just made it less effective. It maintained various status quos in the facets of power that exist in society. arguewithatree points out that this has a name; it's called Kyriarchy. Patriarchy is a benefactor of Kyriarchy. Sexism goes both ways indeed, and it won't be gone until the patriarchal imbalance is, with its benevolent sexism encouraging the demure domesticated woman and the strong industrial/warrior man. Tradition they call it. It is rooted in biblical text and everything. It sprouted a culture where men protect the virginity, faithfulness and safety of their "possessions" from other men. I can assure you the people who formulated this society based on biblical values weren't women. They weren't allowed. These people in power, they sure as hell aren't going to listen to the women whose agency they've stunted, lest they lose even more control. And they're sure as hell not going to give vulnerability to men, because they don't want to be vulnerable themselves. They police masculinity just as much as they police femininity. They discourage men from pursuing nurturing careers, and outright banned women from combat roles in the military. They privilege the successful masculine man, and punish as "bitch" the ambitious entrepreneurial woman. They privilege the submissive feminine woman, but scold as "girly " the man who rejects the traditional masculine framework. They teach men to fear being labelled, and women to fear men. It is people in power who are denying men's vulnerability and casting them aside if they are vulnerable. It is people in power in power who are keeping agency from women. It is people in power who are setting the standards for society. It's not sexism to point out that it is overwhelmingly or ultimately men who are in power, or that because of this they need to lead change or share the power with those who will. In an amazing coincidence, as patriarchal dominance is slowly eroded, there are shifts in perception, barriers are being broken down, and things are changing. "Patriarchy theory" isn't a feminist theory. It exists almost exclusively as a concept in anti-feminist arguments. It is designed to discredit feminism by twisting logic and painting a straw argument, a "straw feminist" so to speak. It is used to imply that feminism is about are running around screaming "sexism" and "privilege" every time they don't get their way while ignoring that men sometimes have bad luck too. Are there people who identify as feminists who do this? Sure. Are they the majority and is it the basis of feminism? Hells to the no. Feminists don't expect men in homeless shelters to overturn sexism. They expect the privileged men and women in politics and the courthouse to.
I'm aware of the concept. I don't really care too deeply what the ideological underpinnings for their personal justifications are as long as people do actually treat people equally. Personally, conceptually, I don't think patriarchy theory is great, but it doesn't, like offend me. Stuff like that whole #killallmen thing and some of the stuff you see around places like reddit mocking male victimization, though, does bother me. It's when people take it to the point that they start treating some people poorly or ignoring the things that happen to them simply because of their gender that I think there's a problem. So who are all these feminists defending patriarchy theory then? Are you saying it's not a theory that's essential to feminism? Because I most certainly have conversed with buckets of feminists who believe in the patriarchy. If we're discussing whether or not power is socially stratified along gender lines what are we discussing?"Patriarchy theory" isn't a feminist theory. It exists almost exclusively as a concept in anti-feminist arguments. It is designed to discredit feminism by twisting logic and painting a straw argument, a "straw feminist" so to speak.
Patriarchy is a concept in feminism. "Patriarchy theory" is a phrase that was coined in anti-feminist circles. I would guess that most feminists think you're merely referring to the former when you say "patriarchy theory" as they don't know the etymology of it.
That would be me. TIL. I would guess that most feminists think you're merely referring to the former when you say "patriarchy theory" as they don't know the etymology of it.
How do you have a meta conversation about patriarchy then? If I say "patriarchy theory" it's quite clear from those two words that I'm discussing ideas about patriarchy rather than patriarchy itself. And if we're talking about a criticism of feminism, shouldn't we expect a bit of terminology from the people who criticize feminism?
Criticism of feminism and anti-feminism are two different things. Feminism does self-criticize. Like any movement, it needs to continually evaluate its effectiveness and evolve. That's why we've had "waves" of feminism. Feminists should continually "examine their privilege". Everyone has privileges. Some have more. Some privileges are more significant than others. Feminism is about letting everyone have a fair go but recognizing that women can't help that happen for others unless women in general catch up and the most powerful women have the same influence that the most powerful men do. In the same way, women can't catch up if they leave some women, such as Women of Color, behind. And Women of Color can't catch up if Men of Color can't. Feminists who don't recognize this are not building an effective feminist movement. Anti-feminism wants feminism abolished. It doesn't want it to change, it wants it gone. Why? Because it's disrupting the status quo and thus it's not about putting men first. Sometimes they want feminism abolished because it's encouraging women to seek and keep careers that aren't "housewife" and "parent" and thus men will have to do more (or anything) in those areas. Other times it's more nefarious and centered around how assault prevention is costing men a "right". Even women succumb to this ideal. Sometimes it's a form of Stockholm's Syndrome. Sometimes they just have good lives and they are convinced they will be forced to change by becoming the exception to the norm.
Personally, I don't really fall into either of those categories. I think that there's a lot of good in feminist action and some of the academia, I really like Judith Butler's work for example, but the whole general idea of gender stratified power is something I just don't think is accurate. I'd say it's a massive oversimplification and the lived experiences of most people invalidate it. I honestly don't see the label of feminism or the concept of patriarchy that it carries with it as being compatible with a solution to sexism. That doesn't mean that I don't want to disrupt the status quo or I want to put men first or that I want women to be housewives. It means that I don't think we can successfully eradicate sexism while holding up the banner of a single gender. What do you mean by assault prevention costing men a right? Are you referring to laws that dictate how domestic abuse calls are handled? Personally, as someone who's been a victim of domestic abuse, that's important to me. I know some men wind up arrested when the cops show up after they've been beaten. That's not okay. I don't expect that that's what you're referring to, but I'm not familiar with this particular line of argument here so I really have no idea. At any rate, I don't sort into either of those piles. I think sexism happens to everybody and we need to stop expecting certain behavior from one another on the basis of our gender. I don't think that can be done from the context of a narrative that can't let go of the old agency/vulnerability dichotamy, though.
Why are you denying the stratification of power? Is this really about which gender the poorest person in the world is? It's not a competition, and it's not what stratification of power means. The super majority of positions of power and societal influence are held by men. Men as a whole hold more power than women since powerful women cannot outvote powerful men. That means that women raising an issue that affects women don't have representation. If men are the most downtrodden it isn't because women do it. It's because men do it. It isn't based on sex. It's based on class. It's based on people like Trump casting away anyone who failed at something. If you still can't believe in the stratification of power favoring patriarchal society, then I have better things to do than sit here repeating myself.
Because power isn't clear cut or stratified along gender lines. Want to see what clearly stratified power looks like? Compare white and black populations in the US. You have less access to education, greater rates of imprisonment, greater rates of homelessness and poverty. Across the board. Not one stat has white people coming out worse off than black people in the United States. Yet when it comes to men and women, the discrimination is all over the place. Women make less money but they're overrepresented in college. Positions of power are more likely to be occupied by men, but so are prison cells or the graves of dead workers. I will happily once again repeat the issue that you've yet to address. No other intersectional axis is in this situation. Every other example where we know power is stratified does not look like this. Instead we have to jump through hoops to maintain a narrative. That's not a clear stratification of power between genders. Men are more empowered in some ways, women more empowered in others. Again, this is the only intersectional axis along which anything remotely like this happens. One more time, explicitly. I deny power stratification between genders because nowhere else where we see clearly stratified power do we see discrimination against parties on both sides of it. Nowhere. Not once.