I'm in the same boat as you are; a user seems to have muted me on ideological grounds as well without having ever even spoken to me. The moderation system is good overall, I feel. People might use it in unfortunate ways, but the concept is a good one, even if it's easily abused. The end result is that certain users will only see things that they agree with, or if they do see dissenting opinions, they can rest assured that they will always have the final word and feel like they're always right. It doesn't really affect me though, it's more their loss than anything else. I feel that the discussion is what makes Hubski what it is, and they're losing out on it. If a discussion begins to get too heated I'll just politely leave and even then that's only happened to me once before. I don't use the moderation functions at all really. The only thing I filter out are some (at the moment, 2) spammers on #technology. If the practice does become popular though, I'll personally just leave Hubski and find another site.
I'm considering blocking you because you share stuff that Grendel posts. Because of the way moderation works on hubski, you're collateral damage because you're directly adjacent to him. You're not conscious enough of his trolling to have muted and avoided him, so I don't want you to influence what I see on hubski. This is less an attack on your ideology as it is your lack of hubskian social norms.
I'm not familiar with Grendel's content. What stand out for you as reasons to filter it out? Why would that lead to you blocking RicePaddy? Wouldn't it make more sense to filter him or just not follow him? How would RicePaddy influence what you see on Hubski if you're not following him?
My first interaction with Grendel came from this post: He intentionally changed "transgender" in the title of his post to "transsexual", and his intention was to troll. He pretends to be unbiased, but he introduces a strong anti-feminist, anti-trans, pro-chauvinism tone to everything he posts. Really, I should say "anti-SJW", because that's what he thinks of it. He knows what he's doing. He's trying to infect the hubski zeitgeist with misogyny and transphobia.
Step 2. Post a bunch of subtly anti-SJW stuff, like the example I gave where he substituted an offensive word (transsexual) for a non-offensive one (transgender). Step 3. All the nerds who like the science stuff will be more inclined to trust his opinions on the anti-SJW stuff. Step 4. Reddit.
This is exactly what happened to Reddit. This is the foot-in-the-door technique of all abusers and trolls. Over time, he will escalate the tone of his posts as he gains more support in the community, all while playing the victim. I have seen this happen to more communities than I can count, and I saw it kill Reddit. Read over Grendel's comments. Ask yourself: Is this the example of permissible behavior that you want new hubski users to see and think is normal? Is this something you're willing to let snowball out of the control? Risk of allowing Grendel in our community: Eternal September, breakdown of civility, Reddit-ificiation. Benefit of allowing Grendel in our community: Some good science posts that others would be posting anyway. The rational decision is excommunication.
Step 1. Post a bunch of cool science stuff to get nerds to like you.
It cuts both ways too. Not only will Grendel gain more support within the community (hey rational science guy hates women, maybe he has a point). But he will also affect the type of user that joins and the type of user that stays. Hubski is mentioned very, very often on r/redditalternatives. As they come over and check out the site, the creepy sexist types will think they've found a home. And as women trying to find a safe space come to the site, his posts are likely to greet them. Not only that, but when they click his username, they see he has a lot of followers. So as Hubski handles this next influx, guess which types we are more likely to recruit.
The disturbing thing is that he appears to have no understanding of science at all. One of my very first days here I ran into him on a thread about Tim Hunt and women in science (aidrocsid was there and we and others had a very civil, mutually beneficial discussion!). Grendel showed up and started doing his usual anti-feminist thing. At one point he claimed social scientists weren't scientists at all, and when I asked him why and even gave him multiple choice options, he freaked out and said that I think logic is the tool of the patriarchy (???)Not only will Grendel gain more support within the community (hey rational science guy hates women, maybe he has a point)
Why did I click that. Why. I've had a terrible day at work and posts like that just make me so done with this field. I'm mentoring a high school girl and some days I feel like I'm doing her a terrible disservice by not telling her to run the hell away and don't look back. The best part is people like Grendel are the guys who say "women just don't like to code, it's fine." Then they move to San fran or Seattle and whine about how there are no single women. Turns out when you chase women out of an industry, they become scarce in tech hub cities. Go figure.
Sorry :(. I debated not posting that comment thread, but I figured it's a prime example of his troll-iness to users who hadn't seen him before. I feel ya there. But I think it's important to be a role model for young women -- if I didn't have a series of awesome female mentors throughout high school I don't think I would have gone into science. (Also, sorry about your bad day at work! Hope it gets better.)I'm mentoring a high school girl and some days I feel like I'm doing her a terrible disservice by not telling her to run the hell away and don't look back.
Don't be sorry! It's a conversation I've had myself many times. I'm the only woman on my team (of 12), so when I screw up I feel like I let my gender down. Combine that with reading about how good women supposedly have it, and well, I'm throwing myself a bit of a pity party. I'll wallow a little tonight and move on tommorow, I'm too stubborn to go anywhere.
FOR REAL THOUGH. Like, if we're not perfect then we just confirm all the negative stereotypes to these people. I'm with you in spirit! I'm the only woman on my team (of 12), so when I screw up I feel like I let my gender down.
I'm throwing myself a bit of a pity party. I'll wallow a little tonight
Thanks so much for the kind words. It's been a tough week, and while normally I don't let that stuff bother me, it's easy to get overwhelmed. When so many people are so comfortable being cruel online, kindness stands out, and you being nice yesterday really helped. Anyway, feeling better today. Onto the next battle!
I have only ever muted 3 spammers, all from some time ago.
As far as I'm aware, the only person who has muted me, is Grendel. Maybe I'm just lucky.
Now I find this interesting. You've just followed me, though I know I have re-shared Grendels posts before (in fact looking at your shared posts, so have you!). I didn't know Grendel was trolling, and to be honest still am unsure if he is or he just has strong opinions, so I shared some of his content that I found interesting and for a while I followed him. When I found out just how vehemently people are disagreeing with him I unfollowed so that I wasn't being lumped into a group with him, just like you have just done. I've gone back and forth on the idea of muting and blocking, personally I think it can be dangerous to block out opinions that are contrary to your own (even if they are made maliciously) and so the most I am likely to do now is to hush someone. Like I said, it's interesting. I am glad you followed me, even though we disagree on some things.
I agree with this. I do not agree with this. There is no place for bad actors in my community. I choose not to spend the mental energy combatting trolls. Trolls such as Grendel are intelligent, and they choose their words carefully. They are masters of psychological abuse. It is harmful to the health of our community, and to the mental health of each of us as individuals, to have anything at all to do with Grendel. People who don't understand how truly dangerous it is to allow sociopaths like Grendel to have any voice at all, are the unwitting pawns of the cycle of abuse. I am considering creating a hubski bot which will re-post Grendel's posts, so as to not allow him to have any inkling of hegemony over discussions pertaining to interesting science topics.I think it can be dangerous to block out opinions that are contrary to your own
(even if they are made maliciously)
I don't want to take away Grendel's voice, but I also don't want it to go unchecked. If you post on the feminist tag with anti feminist bs, I don't want someone new to hubski to think that's what represents the site (I did at first). It's much better if you click comments on that stuff and see a rational voice with several others drowning out the hatespeech. So i comment and disagree. And now he's muted me and he can continue to mess up global unchecked. I'm pretty sure the only reason he posts all the other things is so he won't get muted when he's trolling. His comments reflect that - they are mostly on troll posts, with much less of them being on science.
Yes, I agree. He knows exactly what he's doing. It's important that we as a community raise our consciousness of this sort of behavior and stamp it out. I do. He's abusing the maxims of good faith that underpin a prosocial community. He's a bad actor. He doesn't want to have fruitful discussions, he only wants to rile people to anger and mislead new users. I mean, it's in his fucking name: Grendel, the troll from Beowulf.I'm pretty sure the only reason he posts all the other things is so he won't get muted when he's trolling. His comments reflect that - they are mostly on troll posts, with much less of them being on science.
I don't want to take away Grendel's voice,
This this this this omfg this. Whenever "free speech" gets wheeled out by people I get frustrated because defending violent rhetoric as free speech makes speech so much less free for other people. Whenever I post something to hubski, I have no choice but to remember that there is someone on here who literally wants me hurt. I can't forget that he has followers. I can't know which of these are subscribing to his hate. I have to hope that none of them will turn on me. I have to hope this because to protect my sanity, I have to commit a crime that people here consider worse than hate speech or intimidation. "Censorship."People who don't understand how truly dangerous it is to allow sociopaths like Grendel to have any voice at all, are the unwitting pawns of the cycle of abuse.
Don't block me... Pls... :c No but seriously, I'm guilty by association? I don't always circle-dot things because I agree with them though, sometimes I circle-dot things that I disagree with, but spawned a decent discussion. How do you use the circle-dot button, or how do you feel a Hubskier 'should' use it? In the specific case of Grendel, I disagree with probably about 80% of the stuff he says/posts (he's been posting some decent science-y stuff recently, it seems). When it comes to the race/gender issues that gained him notoriety I probably disagree somewhere along the lines of 98%. It's like he takes the absolute extreme opposite view to the average hubskier (or the average anyone really).
You're not guilty by association, and I want to make a special point about this. I feel an ethical imperative to block people who associate with the True Guilty, such as Grendel. Without doing this, the problem of Grendel's creeping corruption of the hubski community will not be solved. He will have a second-order influence on the hubski zeitgeist through people like you who continue to interact with him. This is why I regretfully embrace the concept of collateral damage. I share things that spawn decent discussions. Grendel does not do that. He is intentionally trolling the community. You are right that he takes an opposite view. He does this on purpose. I know his type. There can be no leeway for people like him, especially during such a critical moment in a community's history, with so many new users joining the site. New users will see the things Grendel says, and even though they will see that he's 80% against the hubski zeitgeist, they'll think his behavior is maybe 15% permissible. So they'll maybe act in a 5%, or even only 2% way similar to him. But this error compounds and gets bigger and bigger as more users flood in. This is how Eternal September ruins communities. This is why reddit turned into a stupid parody of itself. Grendel's behavior is 100% unacceptable. I don't want to have anything to do with him. I want my social graph to keep him 7 nodes away from me, not 2. If I don't block people who follow Grendel, then Grendel is right there, lurking right outside my vision, influencing my filter bubble through you and others like you. I don't want Grendel to have any influence on my filter bubble at all. I don't want him to be a part of the community that I'm a part of. Hubski lets me tailor my community, and I am the sort of person who is willing to cut away some of the good flesh of the fruit to get rid of 100% of the rot. I am morally opposed to blocking you, but I feel it is ethically necessary unless you stop following Grendel.
First and foremost: I am not following Grendel. He was the first person to follow me on Hubski, so he held a special place in my heart... Until I saw he spent most of his time posting a shit-ton of flame bait and filling my feed up with bullshit. In any case, a lot of what you're saying is genuinely pretty scary. And this comment you made a little bit up there is fairly... Extreme, to say the least. In any case, I'm not saying you're wrong or that you don't have a point; however you sound just as consumed in hatred as Grendel does when he's having a good day. Even to the point where you're willing to throw others under the bus (who aren't even associated with him, by the way!) on account of your hatred for him. I was looking through your profile, and to be honest you seem like a sound enough fellow when you're not discussing Grendel. Honestly, if I stumbled across your profile in any other circumstance I would actually follow you (I'm struggling to learn Python, and have a passing interest in Philosophy. Currently started reading the Republic actually). In any case, if you feel you have to block people who have associated with Grendel, then by all means do your thing. However, just my 2 cents: be careful that you don't turn into the evil you're trying to stomp out. Good luck!... block people who associate with the True Guilty, such as Grendel.
... you and others like you
Am I the only one who thinks this reads like I'm part of some group of scumbags?You're not guilty by association, and I want to make a special point about this... I am morally opposed to blocking you, but I feel it is ethically necessary unless you stop following Grendel.
I'm finding it difficult to find the part where this isn't guilt by association.
Jeez, I thought I was pretty amicable bloke. I remember the discussion I had with you, but I thought it was actually fairly level-headed. I remember it heating up toward the end, but I left it before it got out of hand. Can you outline why it is that you think this is the case? I'd like to try and put the record straight with people who may have it out for me. Feel free to fire me a PM so we don't clog up people's global chatter!
I don't have it out for you. You're not blocked, muted, filtered or hushed. I just can't trust you, but since I haven't blocked you, I don't act on this lack of trust because of social pressure (aka zomgcensorship!!1!!11!!!!eleventy!!!). Ok see the thing is, I'm a woman on The Internet. (The following isn't exclusive to gender, as eightbitsamurai has pointed out about a million times in the past. It's just relevant to my experience.) The overwhelmingly common assertions are that I should stop being on The Internet if I don't like it when someone threatens my actual existence. If you flip out and I get threatened by you, the consensus is that it's my fault for participating in The Internet. Therefore, I am responsible for what other people do to me. Even if I wanted to put protections in place but was convinced to not. The only acceptable protection I am allowed, is to never participate in The Internet. This is what it's like to be on The Internet for some people. I don't make the rules. I just break them.
By that logic, wouldn't you need to mute everyone you don't already explicitly know and trust? Entirely your own decision, though, of course. If for you, Hubski is about a trusted group of peers who share your idea of what the "Zeitgeist" should be, that's entirely your prerogative. That's the beauty of everyone only being their own moderator.
Cool, then I'll follow you. This is what he does to lure the unwary. He wants to be the first impression to new users of "the typical hubski user". By being the first person to follow new users, he shapes their impression of hubski forever more. It isn't guilt by association because I'm not making any judgement about you, morally or otherwise. I don't think you've done anything deserving of punishment in your own right. You equate "ignoring someone" with "throwing them under the bus". If I block you, all I'm doing is curating my hubski experience. Hubski, like Reddit, is sort of the opposite of an RSS feed reader. Rather than opting in to get a stream of content from a bunch of different sources, we start with unfiltered everything and have to cut it down. I'm not denying you your hubski experience. I'm just choosing to not allow you to be part of mine. That's my right, and that's nothing to do with hate.First and foremost: I am not following Grendel. He was the first person to follow me on Hubski, so he held a special place in my heart... Until I saw he spent most of his time posting a shit-ton of flame bait and filling my feed up with bullshit.
He was the first person to follow me on Hubski, so he held a special place in my heart...
You're not guilty by association, and I want to make a special point about this... I am morally opposed to blocking you, but I feel it is ethically necessary unless you stop following Grendel.
I'm finding it difficult to find the part where this isn't guilt by association.
you're willing to throw others under the bus