- We started Reddit to be—as we said back then with our tongues in our cheeks—“The front page of the Internet.” Reddit was to be a source of enough news, entertainment, and random distractions to fill an entire day of pretending to work, every day. Occasionally, someone would start spewing hate, and I would ban them. The community rarely questioned me. When they did, they accepted my reasoning: “because I don’t want that content on our site.”
As we grew, I became increasingly uncomfortable projecting my worldview on others. More practically, I didn’t have time to pass judgement on everything, so I decided to judge nothing.
So we entered a phase that can best be described as Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. This worked temporarily, but once people started paying attention, few liked what they found. A handful of painful controversies usually resulted in the removal of a few communities, but with inconsistent reasoning and no real change in policy.
One thing that isn't up for debate is why Reddit exists. Reddit is a place to have open and authentic discussions. The reason we’re careful to restrict speech is because people have more open and authentic discussions when they aren't worried about the speech police knocking down their door. When our purpose comes into conflict with a policy, we make sure our purpose wins.
As Reddit has grown, we've seen additional examples of how unfettered free speech can make Reddit a less enjoyable place to visit, and can even cause people harm outside of Reddit. Earlier this year, Reddit took a stand and banned non-consensual pornography [1] . This was largely accepted by the community, and the world is a better place as a result (Google and Twitter have followed suit). Part of the reason this went over so well was because there was a very clear line of what was unacceptable.
Therefore, today we're announcing that we're considering a set of additional restrictions on what people can say on Reddit—or at least say on our public pages—in the spirit of our mission.
These types of content are prohibited [1]: - Spam
- Anything illegal (i.e. things that are actually illegal, such as copyrighted material. Discussing illegal activities, such as drug use, is not illegal)
- Publication of someone’s private and confidential information
- Anything that incites harm or violence against an individual or group of people
- Anything that harasses, bullies, or abuses an individual or group of people (these behaviors intimidate others into silence)
- Sexually suggestive content featuring minors
There are other types of content that are specifically classified:
- Adult content must be flagged as NSFW (Not Safe For Work). Users must opt into seeing NSFW communities. This includes pornography, which is difficult to define, but you know it when you see it.
- Similar to NSFW, another type of content that is difficult to define, but you know it when you see it, is the content that violates a common sense of decency. This classification will require a login, must be opted into, will not appear in search results or public listings, and will generate no revenue for Reddit.
We've had the NSFW classification since nearly the beginning, and it's worked well to separate the pornography from the rest of Reddit. We believe there is value in letting all views exist, even if we find some of them abhorrent, as long as they don’t pollute people’s enjoyment of the site. Separation and opt-in techniques have worked well for keeping adult content out of the common Redditor’s listings, and we think it’ll work for this other type of content as well.
No company is perfect at addressing these hard issues. We’ve spent the last few days here discussing and agree that an approach like this allows us as a company to repudiate content we don’t want to associate with the business, but gives individuals freedom to consume it if they choose. This is what we will try, and if the hateful users continue to spill out into mainstream reddit, we will try more aggressive approaches. Freedom of expression is important to us, but it’s more important to us that we at reddit be true to our mission.
[1] This is basically what we have right now. I’d appreciate your thoughts. A very clear line is important and our language should be precise.
What do you think?
- NSFW content will be required to flagged, and NSFW subreddits
- Content that is questionable, but not nudity will be flagged with a different flair (like /r/coontown)
- Subs that promote or encourage harassment, violence, or illegal activities will be banned (ex. /r/rapingwomen)
- Clarification on harmful content: It's ok to say, "I don't like this group of people." It's not ok to say, "I'm going to kill this group of people."
- Better tools to assist moderators promised.
- "Ugly" content is not being pushed out to monetize Reddit
- BDSM subs are staying (yay!)
- Subreddit squatters are an issue, but there's no current solution
Basically, the new CEO is making it so that reddit's user numbers will see a nice increase as anybody who wants to visit coontown--whether to document it for a professional or personal reason, to see it just to confirm its terribleness, or to participate in it--will have to make an account. The new CEO is also saying that reddit will be subsidizing coontown since he claims they won't be making revenue off of it. So they are willing to host racist content for free, with no ads whatsoever on that sub. Of course, it's bullshit to claim they won't make any revenue off of it. The accounts created to see it will make their user numbers look better to advertisers and potential buyers. The accounts created to see it very likely won't stay "contained" in that single sub, so those users will help reddit generate revenue elsewhere on the site, likely by submitting racist content to other subs like TIL or gilding people. This is the shit that redditors should've been angry about for days at a time, plastering memes and shit all over the front page while blacking out their subreddits. Instead, nothing is going to happen and the worst of reddit get to rejoice in their newfound freedom.
Personally, I only show up for a little bit every day (which is a lot less than the hours I used to spend there). If it wasn't for the meta subs and the couple good posts that show up there a day, I wouldn't be there at all.
I think that's a who a lot of us are feeling now. If it wasn't for the few small subs I still browsed there I would've left the site a long time ago.
This tag hasn't really been showing up on my feed lately. Most the time that's a good thing, but sometimes I'm interested. I migrated before the FPH drama so my attitudes might be a little different than those who came after that happened and the subsequent drama that unfolded with Victoria's firing. That said, I'm actually really pissed off that they are letting /r/coontown continue to exist. Sorry, I am not about "free speech" on private platforms. These people have other places on the Internet they can go to, and they have, I don't know, reality. No one's locking them up for their terrible opinions and statistical illiteracy (here's some statistics devoid of historical/social/economic context or nuance to show why black people suck /s). Why does Reddit think they have some philosophical obligation to give racists a platform? It's like some kind of fetishized version of "tolerance" that says you must tolerate the intolerant to be consistent. I think that's bullshit. Reddit would be a better place without them. So often, I've clicked on a post in places like /r/libertarian, read a comment that smelled like (racial) bullshit, and then saw that the user was a /r/coontown poster in their comment history. These are the type of people that drove me away from Reddit, not "SJWs." It's spineless, and this decision really is pushing me even more toward Hubski, which I've been using more in that last few weeks.
This comment which argues along the same lines was one of the first posted, one of the highest upvoted, and has been conspicuously ignored. I honestly thought that /u/spez was going to bite the bullet and go on a banning spree of /r/coontown and related subs, but apparently not. It's disappointing.
That's a fantastic comment that gets right to the point and pulls no punches. It's unfortunate they haven't responded to it. Do they think banning places like /r/coontown will lead to a FPH/Victoria style meltdown again? EDIT: This reply to that comment is on point as well.
Feel free to head over there and comment, Jedberg told me the exact scenario your describing doesn't happen when I tried to bring it up. Normally I woudn't bother to argue about this stuff but I'm done with that site, I don't have to worry about harassment on that account anymore. It's why I care so much about sexism / racism here. If you give those people a voice they use it to corrupt everything around them. And so far hubski seems awesome and worth keeping around.
Really, I only find them leaking into certain subs, but then again, I'm mostly subscribed to smaller ones. /r/news, /r/libertarian, and /r/TIL seem to have a decent number of /r/coontown subscribers in my experience. And that's really not too surprising if you think about it. But yeah, Hubski has been much better on these fronts. I've encountered a lot less reactionary bs here. Few people in fear of some "SJW menace."
The people that talk like this have driven me further and further from reddit. The site seems to have become a full fledged hatebox in every single subreddit. I'm browsing /r/GuildWar2 and I'll see people whining about SJWs. I'm in /r/books I'll see vaguely racist nonsense and anyone who calls it out gets downvoted and called a SJW. It seems it's become impossible to engage with people on reddit and be a decent human being at the same time. That's probably hyperbolic of me but it feels that way to me and it's had a chilling effect on my posting there. Half the time I can't even bring myself to click through to the comments because I know there will be hatred and gnashing of teeth even if it's a picture of a kitten stuck in a sandal. I guess I'm glad I have hubski. The majority of people here seem to have a level head and don't seem to be interested in polarizing language and vitriolic rhetoric. I worry that reddit influxes will ruin the community here too though."SJW menace."
I think /r/videos could be added to that list as well. Every time that there's a post with a non-white person in it, they come out of the woodwork to spout their hate and back it up with "facts" (usually stormfront copypastas). They also lean heavily towards /r/theredpill and the ilk, because they get really happy when a woman gets "what she deserves."
Just look at how many Coontown posters are in that thread!
There's a strong chance that the racists and sexists will eventually kill the site. They won't do it over night (like many of them are used to), but over the long run, the site will die. If Reddit takes anything but a negative stance on racism, it just kind of tells the racists to come on in. There's already a lot of defaults that /r/coontown and the rest of the chimpire are comfortable with, but if more keep pouring in, then Reddit's going to get pretty saturated (or unsaturated, since it's a white supremacists movement) with racism. The racists will love it, but a lot of the regular users will not. Like a few that are here now, many users will move somewhere a little less hostile - which will leave the racists unchecked. They'll start gaining traction, which will make more people leave, and the cycle will continue. A couple of news sites will start to catch on to the changes that will happen and Reddit will get a lot of bad press (as in, more than usual). That bad press, combined with new users being turned off by the racial tension on the site and the lack of people recommending Reddit to others, will slow and eventually stagnate growth over time. The site will no longer be able to counter the natural decay of a user base after it's peak, and the site will just wither away.
Reddit's appeasing their (extremely) vocal minority (heh) at the cost of the values of most of the people on the site. A lot of the reactionaries believe the problem is free speech - and they're right. However, the problem isn't the restriction of that right, but rather the protection of it. /r/Coontown, the capital of the chimpire, has 18k subsribers, which is a drop of water in the ocean of the 8 million people that browse the largest sub, /r/AskReddit. The strange thing is, they, along with people of other like-minded subreddits, are the ones that are in the driver's seat of the trainwreck that is the new content policies. Suffice to say, most of Reddit's normal users aren't white-supremacists, but the white power knights still hold power over what's allowed to be on the site. Sometimes, appeasing a minority group is a good thing - but only if the change that they are appealing either benefits or doesn't affect the rest of the community. For example, if you run a game studio and a small portion of your customers are upset, because your game won't play on their PC, then it would be best to take some resources to get that issue fixed. However, in the case of Reddit's content policy, the changes that they want to make are going to harm the community at large. Free speech is good - that's why it's the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights. However, unchecked free speech isn't great. A person should not be prosecuted for having or expressing an opinion - but that doesn't mean everyone should be forced condone it if it's repulsive. If I want to print pictures of women being beaten to death, then that's my right. However, if I want to put the same picture on a billboard, that doesn't mean the billboard company should be forced to meet my demands. It's my right to express my opinion, but other people are not obligated to help me spread it. The people /r/Coontown should be able to hate women. The people of /r/theredpill should be allowed to hate women. However, Reddit has no legal or moral commitment to let them organize and promote their hatred on its site. Just like the fact that they can't force a cable network to put hentai on their channel, they can't force Reddit to host the content they like; and in both cases, they have a reason in their refusal. All but a few exclusive cable channels don't broadcast pornography, or anything that could be construed as sexual content. Technically, they're allowed to after 10pm, but they still don't. Why? First off, advertisers. Toyota, and other respectable companies, wouldn't appreciate being promoted along side some girl getting tied up and railed on a bed. As soon as someone pushes in, companies start pulling out. Then, there's the drop in ratings. It may seem weird, but there's a lot of people that don't want to watch porn. On top of that, there's many kids out there whose parent's hold the keys to the cable kingdom. When a naked person shows up on that screen, a lot of people are going to hit channel up and an lot of parents are going to go "Well, looks like Jimmy isn't allowed to go on that channel." Reddit has the same motives. If they let the racist subs gain traction, their posts will start hitting the front page. When companies start noticing this trend, they'll see Reddit as promoting racism and will begin cancelling their ad campaigns on Reddit. For Reddit, that's a direct loss of revenue. At the same time, if there's more people joining racially centered subreddits, they'll also start leaking into the rest of the site. Look at /r/news, /r/europe, /r/videos, or /r/worldnews. Anytime someone that isn't white is mentioned, the chimpire starts sending missionaries to start converting people. To a small few, they'll be convinced and /r/Coontown will be one step closer to a Culture Victory. However, for many, seeing blatantly racist comments at the top of the page is just a major turn off. Many will just look away, but the ones that have for awhile will stop looking completely. They'll start seeing Reddit as not the "front page of the internet", but rather "the front page of the world white web." They'll migrate to other sites, like many people here have. They'll stop going to Reddit, which in the short term, will only reduce growth, but over time will stagnate and shrink the population. The racists will shout over the rest and the rest will leave. New comers will only see racists shouting and will never get passed the front page. Less people will recommend Reddit to friends and strangers, and the site will slowly die. Reddit's been changing over the past couple years, and this summer the changes have been in overdrive. The admins' lack of spine got them to the point where any action in regards to content is going to hurt them. Removing racist content is going to cause a mess, and keeping racist content and letting it grow is going to cause people to leave. Removal will bring good press to the admins, but will ultimately put the site in a bad light when everyone loses their mind. Keeping the content is going to give the admins bad press, and will eventually kill the site. In the end, there's one obvious solution. The reason that decision so rough is the same reason spoiled kids will always get what they want: if someone puts their foot down, they have a tantrum. From the way things have transpired today, it looks like the brat's going to get what it wants.Reddit would be a better place without them. So often, I've clicked on a post in places like /r/libertarian, read a comment that smelled like (racial) bullshit, and then saw that the user was a /r/coontown poster in their comment history. These are the type of people that drove me away from Reddit, not "SJWs."
Great comment. I hadn't even thought of how years of the admins' appeasement brought them to this situation. If they nipped these communities in the bud, they'd have never become such a powerful user base. But yes, the "free speech" argument never held up for me. People hiding behind "free speech" are essentially saying a publisher has an obligation to publish their content, which limits the publisher's freedom of expression. I understand that publishers as gatekeepers can be a problem when the means of publishing are privately controlled, but I don't think this is the case with a single website on the Internet. These people can go to other websites, they can create their own, and they are free to spread their messages some other way.
The free speech argument is pretty facetious. If the only argument that you can make for voicing your opinion is that it's technically not illegal to say, then there's probably something wrong with your opinion.
The free speech argument never held up for me because your average Redditor (ie not an admin or a mod) is just a pleb who has as little "rights" then as they do now. Where's the protection against censorship when the FPH mods banned everyone who didn't tow the "fuck fat people" line? Whatever change in policy the admins have in store strictly speaking only affects the way mods govern their subreddits. Mods can ban me from their subreddit on a whim and it's not like an admin is going to spend time monitoring my account and ban me because I called someone a faggot. So, really, this whole drama is just a power struggle between the admins and the mods. I really don't see why the plebs would care since they really don't have a stake in this either way. Except if you hate black people I guess.
/r/coontown is a containment sub. Let them have their corner of the net. As you found out, places like this make it easy to find out the real face of someone. I look at this stuff in the exact same way that I see the "Confederate" flag. If you wave that flag, I immediately assume you are an asshole until you prove different. Same thing with the containment subs. I'd much rather keep these people in their corner where it is easy to keep an eye on them than to let them scatter and mess up the rest of a site. Free speech is messy, and sometimes unpleasant. But either we all get it, or none of us will be able to speak our minds.
I thought the point of /pol/ was to be satirical and ironic. Ah well, I guess I wouldn't know. I've never been on 4chan.
Some people there are being ironic. Some people there literally support Hitler. The nature of the set up means that both groups can exist along side each other. Disclaimer: I haven't spent very much time on /pol/ so my opinion isn't one to put much trust in.
And to add to what I said recently about this. Junior can now show mom and dad the Reddit webpage, and if he/she is not logged in, they see none of the ugly. They see AMA and picts and jokes and space and stuff like that. This is a half-assed way to look clean and responsible and at the same time to try to not piss off the numbers they need to sell the website later this year. I have to give it to them, though, this was a brilliant walk of the tightrope at 30,000 feet. Wonder how it is going to work out over the first bans.