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comment by am_Unition
am_Unition  ·  3569 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Carl Sagan on The Relationship Between Science and Religion atheist.

I don't terribly disagree with most of what you're claiming, but I gave up on being militant about it. There are people near to me in my life with whom my relationships would suffer if I constantly reminded them that I considered Jesus to be just another leading brand-name.

    Now, while I will agree that you cannot prove there is no such thing as a deity, I do not see it as any reason to accept or tolorate claims that one exists if there is no evidence backing them. Science is accepting things with evidence, not accepting things with nothing disproving them.

That's on the exact same level as theists being intolerant to you holding your position, because you have no evidence backing you up either. I know what science is, but it still hasn't been able to answer certain existential questions that a dwindling percentage of educated mankind has a rabid craving of answers for. And here's the thing; the believers think they do have evidence of some sort backing up their answers to existence. Usually a holy book or the words of powerful figurehead.

    It is only through debate that we can refine, hone, and ensure that the ideas that people hold in society have solid footing and will lead society in a proper direction.

How many times can you stomach watching an atheist "destroy" a person of faith with logical attacks? How many times can people of faith stomach watching other believers "destroy" an atheist with powerful religious rhetoric and references to scriptures? It quickly gets very boring, and degenerates into the same type of predictable behavior and content that religion turned me off with.

Religiosity is, like I said, dwindling. It's going out of style in the western world like Crocs™ circa one decade ago, and yes, that is largely due to some increased scientific progress and literacy. Most models predict that religion's decline is inevitable and likely near at-hand, mere centuries away.

So, bioemerl, you can go yell at those people dressed in their Sunday best, driving slow in the fast lane, high on Jeebus. Tell them everything that they're doing wrong. But don't get mad when they turn around and nitpick your faults for all the world to hear as well. And yeah, there's always a chance you'll get through, that you'll make a difference, but you're always introducing yourself and another (usually) harmless human being to conflict, distress, and/or ego-reinforcement, etc.

I thought the graphic was interesting, but I guess I don't fall into a square. I can mark my 'X' far out from the origin on the "agnostic" arrow axis.

Anyway, I can already tell you that we have more in common than most members of my nuclear family, none of whom will ever engage in a decent conversation on Hubski.

Cheers! :)





bioemerl  ·  3569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    but I gave up on being militant about it.

I wouldn't dare ever mention religion to anyone I know in real life. Perhaps if a debate came up, I would join in, but I will never bring the topic up.

    That's on the exact same level as theists being intolerant to you holding your position, because you have no evidence backing you up either.

This is where the flying spaghetti monster comes into play. Acceptance of ideas because there is nothing disproving them is not acceptable or reasonable.

    I know what science is, but it still hasn't been able to answer certain existential questions that a dwindling percentage of educated mankind has a rabid craving of answers for. And here's the thing; the believers think they do have evidence of some sort backing up their answers to existence. Usually a holy book or the words of powerful figurehead.

Those answers are things we should come to on our own terms, and share with each other without the framework of religion. Questions not related to science, such as, "why do I exist" should not be dictated to us by some larger authority, but instead to ourselves, by ourselves.

Of course, that leaves open that a person could consider it their purpose to serve a god of some form. To that I go back to responding that such a thing does not exist, and the person should be saying "I exist to serve my church, or what I feel is correct at any moment after meditation".

And there is no evidence backing religion of any form. All that exists is coincidence and bias. Some can claim that they have evidence, and they can choose to be stubborn about it, but at the end of the day they do not, not until it can be repeated and studied/proven beyond anecdote.

    How many times can you stomach watching an atheist "destroy" a person of faith with logical attacks?

An infinite number? I am less concerned about the quality of the debate, but instead that they continue to exist and be seen by all people walking by, allowing them to get facts and come to their own decision.

    How many times can people of faith stomach watching other believers "destroy" an atheist with powerful religious rhetoric and references to scriptures?

The same reasoning applies above. It's the whole point of debate. People who already are steady and unmoving in their side aren't the point of debate in the first place.

    Religiosity is, like I said, dwindling. It's going out of style in the western world like Crocs™ circa one decade ago, and yes, that is largely due to some increased scientific progress and literacy.

It's due to the debates, it's due to those who talk, who speak, etc.

    So, bioemerl, you can go yell at those people dressed in their Sunday best, driving slow in the fast lane, high on Jeebus. Tell them everything that they're doing wrong. But don't get mad when they turn around and nitpick your faults for all the world to hear as well.

I do not yell. I do not bust into churches in order to attack people's faith. I speak my opinion when it is appropriate. I debate where I feel that it will result in something decent and constructive. I am not trying to explicitly change minds and be some crusader of atheism.

However, when I am dragged to church by my mother, sent off to a two week church camp, and get to sit and listen to a crowd inside of a church that appears to be one of the more "acceptable" "modern" churches that have projectors and play pop rather than classic music, cheer about a tornado that went through the town to kill 8, because it knocked over a stripper club, I feel like something has to be said.

When people will try to push the agenda that religion has founding because it's a personal choice, when people say that they can make claims of god's existance because there is no proof against it, when people say things that are clearly and demonstrably false and irrational, I feel like I have to say something.

I don't consider myself a militant atheist. I don't consider myself someone who will barge into churches and tell people they are wrong, but when you twist facts in public. When you attack other people under the guise of religion, when you cheer for destruction, I can't help but say "you are wrong."

Of course, I don't do that in reality, because I am never going to be in such situations when I am out of college, when I don't go to churches anymore, when I keep to myself. And now, when I do see those situations, I don't say anything because I am representing my family, and I am a bit of a coward, I don't like speaking publicly, or to anyone that I do not very closely know that isn't online.

I expect and would love them to point out my own faults. Knowledge and admitting my faults is a very good thing to have. Now, if you are talking about myself being demonized, or hated, or whatever it is. Honestly, so long as I do not get fired, and I do not get killed, I am more than happy to have people hate me for whatever reasons. If they do so, I didn't want to know them in the first place.

This post is going to be cringy in the future.

user-inactivated  ·  3568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    because I am never going to be in such situations when I am out of college

You encounter those sorts of things in college? Damn, what kinda college are you going to, bruh? That sounds horrible. CU is shit in a lot of ways, but at least it doesn't push religion on me - the conspicuously placed churches around the university take care of that.

bioemerl  ·  3568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I go home for summer break and such. Out of college meaning "once I am in my own home".

am_Unition  ·  3568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I grew up like that, but the WAKE-UP-ITS-SUNDAY! routine didn't persist through college. Apart from Christmas & Easter for a couple of years, it ended when I left the house.

Naturally, I recommend vacating their premises and living in an apartment across town. If only that didn't cost you $40k in student loan debt.

Hang in there.

bioemerl  ·  3568 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Hang in there.

Ah, I don't think it's such a big deal outside of a minor inconvenience. I wouldn't even consider leaving home for the sake of getting away from my family, outside of the fact that it's a part of growing up.

Going to church is probably something I could actively refuse and deny (now that I am in college and seen as an adult), but I don't think it's worth the statement of "I want to be away from you".

I do remain pissed, however, about the two week church camp when I was still 18, and the church cheering about that tornado. Luckily those aren't going to happen again, or, the church camp won't.

Quatrarius  ·  3569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Is it okay if I ask how old you are? I am not using it to "prove you wrong," I just want to know. You do not need to give an exact year.

bioemerl  ·  3569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

In college. College age. Should be specific enough.

Quatrarius  ·  3569 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It is, thank you.