FOUND THE PROBLEM

Optimism and pessimism are not strategies. They are outlooks.

It's purest egocentric sophistry to conclude that your regard of a problem will have any effect on its outcome. The way you feel about something will only affect your interaction with it, and the interactions of those you interact with. Your emotions have as much effect on the physics of the situation as the color of a car has on its wet-weather performance.

However

The way you regard a situation or problem has a definite impact on the way others regard you and if you haven't figured it out yet, lemme tell ya: a negative outlook is about the most divisive thing you can throw into a group dynamic. There's a reason all those African kids you always see are smiling - smiles are non-threatening. Smiles indicate you are open. Smiles are what we do to growling dogs to calm them down.

The only thing you can affect are the dynamics of your interpersonal relationships. Pessimism corrodes them and retards their potential. Optimism is truly inspirational - you will find that a positive outlook and charisma are closely correlated.

So it comes down to this: you and the rest of humanity are careening through a universe of physics, chemistry and probability together. If you do it with a smile on your face, the rest of the human race will try to help you. If you do it with a frown they avoid you. Depression is isolating in many ways - not the least of which it makes people not want to hang out with you. So take it from someone who spent the entirety of his teenaged years on the ragged edge of jumping off a cliff - fake it 'til you make it.

THAT is rationality: recognizing that there aren't many things you can impact, but pessimism impacts them negatively.

First, if we haven't talked about defensive pessimism yet, we need to, because it's the shit. I first heard about it while listening to NPR and my jaw dropped as the discussion went on because of just how deeply I realized I related to the behavior. And you, you probably do too. Sounds a bit better than 'catastrophic' prediction however (at least in verbiage).

I do see value in long-term optimism because sometimes, the most important thing to remember is that eventually, things are going to be okay. You might not be able to see the end of it, but you need to believe it's there. The "It Gets Better" series is an excellent example of this, I think.

The audience of this series are teens and young kids who are grappling with their sexuality and orientation. Often, they are bullied. None of them, for the most part, have actually seen it get better. They have no context in life to believe that it does get better. Right now, they're in hells. They need to be told it gets better because yeah, it really does. The advice may sound like foolish optimism to them until they watch a video, several videos, all the "It Gets Better" videos. Providing real-life examples, over and over again, of how eventually it does get better, helps provide proof that it isn't just illogical optimism and that other people have been where they are and it's improved.

But at the end of the day, "it gets better" is still 100% optimism. Some gay kids kill themselves before they hit their teens. It doesn't get better for them.

Optimism keeps people going. I think depressed and other mentally complicated folks are very sensitive, however, to the line between "reasonable optimism" and "unreasonable optimism." For instance, the guy I was seeing kept telling me that "2015 was going to be my year and he could just feel it." Or he'd tell me I'd absolutely, for sure have my poems accepted when I submitted them.

I find that kind of optimism harmful because it's not based in any kind of realistic expectations. It was based purely in faith and belief in me - but without even the context of regularly reading and appreciating poetry. I find that personally, when I listen to this kind of optimism, it generally sets me up to believe I'm going to get something or even that I deserve something, when there's no reason to believe that. Inevitably, when I don't receive what I expected, I experience a horrible sensation my friends used to call "hope-lash." It's like whiplash, but with hope - it's the feeling that happens after you get so excited and built up and ready for something to happen in your life, and then - it doesn't. It's an awful feeling. I avoid it, which is one of the reasons I employ defensive pessimism.

I tend to stop trusting the opinions of people who consistently display unreasonable optimism because their opinions tend to be grounded in feelings as opposed to facts. Someone who is convinced my poem should be accepted and is enraged when it isn't doesn't understand the poetry market. It doesn't help me to have someone like that in my life, honestly - poetry rejections shouldn't elicit outrage. They happen far too often for them to be worth much emotional reaction, even though - yes - they can still be disappointing.

I also spend a lot of time about the worst possible outcome and how I would handle it. Unfortunately usually for me that means I think a lot about how I could die or grievously injure myself in the next 30 seconds. It's not always a comfortable mental space and I sometimes wonder "What is wrong with me?" that I am preoccupied with these images. I agree that considering the worst possible outcome can make you more prepared, for instance if you are going camping, pack for the worst. I have lots of flashlights and med kids because I prepare for the worst. Unfortunately, as I said, I also sit around and think about how whatever I'm doing is going to land me in the hospital or near death. NOT FUN THOUGHTS. NOT RECOMMENDED.

Reasonable optimism is good. Unreasonable optimism, to folks like you or me, is not helpful and because we find it unhelpful we begin to dismiss the people around us who exhibit it. Unreasonable optimism is "I'm going to get a graphic design job when I haven't done graphic design in 3 years and don't have a portfolio or good resume!" Unreasonable optimism gets you nowhere. I find it worse than spinning wheels. I consider it backwards movement as you begin to rely on "your feelings" instead of "the facts, ma'am."

But I consider long-term optimism essential because I think that believing it will get better, eventually, in the long run, at a time you can't foresee now but do believe will happen, is what helps get a lot of people through depression, suicidal urges, and so on. I think this ties into the fact that setting goals or booking future events which you're looking forward to helps deal with day-to-day depression. If you have the optimism to believe you'll be alive in 3 months and so you book a concert, you then have that concert to look forward to every day for the next 3 months, no matter how often things feel so bad that you think about killing yourself. You need to have the optimism to believe that the future will be worthwhile in order to keep going, every day. Sometimes, you will never have experienced the "worthwhile," or it will feel like you haven't. And you need to have the optimism to believe that it's there even when your personal experience is screaming like hell that it isn't.

One of my long-term realistic optimisms is that I will find someone out there who is so right, so perfect for me, that we will stay together, and the relationship will be happy and healthy, and we'll get married. And that somehow i'll know it when I see it. I have no prior experience that says that this will happen. I just have to believe it will. And the thing is, I feel like anecdotes and statistics back me up enough that I can believe in it. In the meantime I do things to try and be better at relationships, to improve my chances of this succeeding when I do meet that person. I read John Gottman's articles and advice. I try to consider my behavior and modify it. It's optimism that I'll marry someone, but while it's optimism, I do everything I can to help it come true.

It's optimism (it's WAAAAY optimism) that I'll ever be a well-known poet, but I'll do everything I can to help make it true.

For the record, a long time ago, I was there, at that "long term we all die so what does it matter if I live or die I should just kill myself" place that you're talking about. "What's the point because we're all dust in the end?" I felt I had to justify my existence, be GREAT, or else just resign myself to being nothing and dying, because what was the point? I wouldn't be remembered. I put myself under incredible pressure to "achieve" and the thing was, I'd never be good enough to satisfy those standards and 'justify' my existence. I felt like, you know, that stupid old question, "is it the journey or the destination that matter?" and my answer was "Yo, 100% destination." If you aren't going anywhere why does it matter what path you take?

For the record, I have observed, there's nothing to keep you from being self-destructive like being surrounded by people who know you and love you and care about you. They notice the small things and they don't let you get away with shit. "Fear of getting caught/not worth getting caught" has certainly prevented me from treating myself badly when i wanted to. Also, "dealing with other people's opinions." In the short term it makes you resentful. That's why people with depression and other mental disorders push their friends and family away, I think, or at least part of it. Certainly those whose disorders cause visible damage or impacts to their bodies, routines, etc - OCD, anorexia, self-harm, bulimia, drug abuse, as you mentioned suicide and so on. These people hold you accountable to a certain amount of mental health and in the moment it seems irritating, constraining, and so on. All you want to do is indulge your disorder and you just can't because you know someone will see, and notice, and try and stop you.

But in the long term, this accountability, care, and love? This is good. It's not enough to stop someone who's determined or committed but I think it can help one to stay on the right path. Embrace your family for loving you enough to help keep you from yourself.

It is enough just to exist. I now say, 50% journey, 50% destination. (Because I still need that practicality and logic I see you need; I still need to feel like there is a point, an end-game.)

Let's talk. I hope this helps.

Optimism, in general, is childish, unreasonable and most importantly, irrational.

That may be true, but what outlook is not? If you are looking for a rational basis for any perspective, you won't find a single one that survives a deconstructive analysis. To me, it doesn't seem fair to put Optimism to a test that no other worldview can pass. We are not rational beings, and cannot be rational beings, because rationality is a construct of our own consciousness. We are a ruler measuring our own length.

Things can only go better than catastrophe. But if things go badly, its is the pessimist who is best prepared, and who comes out on top.

This may be true. However, catastrophe is uncommon and unreliable. How about the majority of time which is non-catastrophic? Does the pessimist have the advantage there? Is there a perspective that is more optimal than that of the Optimist and the Pessimist?

I would suggest spending some time on Stoicism. I had a wonderful high school philosophy teacher that explained it to me as such: "mk, we cannot always change our situation, but we can always change our perspective. That is what the Stoics believed."

IMO people conflate the term 'stoic' with the goals of Stoicism. Stoics do not endeavor to be unemotional, but understand that the chains that bind your emotions to circumstance are an illusion.

I often say: "The things that you do are what you want to be doing." I believe this. I also believe that coming to terms with this gives a very useful understanding of yourself.

To separate nature and behavior to me is an absurdity. Do we say that a dog that bites children is a good dog? Do we say that a bridge that falls down is a sturdy bridge?

Can you be an optimist to the extent that it is sensible, and a pessimist as well? Can your behavior and your nature adapt to circumstance? I would never consider eating a corpse on an average day. That would make me a monster. However, if we crash in the snow-covered Andes and you die, I am going to eat your frozen flesh, and will not be a monster.

I have had personal struggles with depression. At times the only tool I had was the knowledge that time would bring me out. However, through trial and error, I have discovered that action is also a tool. The actual activity seems almost irrelevant as long as there is even an intellectual modicum of desire to do it, but I do believe that nature and behavior are inseparable, and action is a modification of behavior; thus action is a modification of one's nature.

I appreciate the candor and I'm sorry that you are in a bad mood pal. Also, I would like to answer your question, but I can't seem to find it. Is it just the title, "Optimism: Rational or NO? --loaded question. I suppose the answer is situational.

I will say that when I spend a lot of time thinking about the future, my role in it etc, or a I spend an inordinate amount of time considering the past, nothing good comes of it. Both are abstractions and are things I have no control over. I have immediate control over my present moment. There is no doubt that my current decisions will impact a future "now," however, it's silly to dwell too much on that.

My advice would be to get out of the habit of thinking about "outcomes" in general. Obviously, you need to consider the impacts of your decisions, but don't dwell. Make a decision and move on. Be present. Act and be in the action.

I'm off to bed, and I doubt I was helpful, but I hope you have a good night pal.

I think when you say optimism is irrational, you are begging the question etc. There is nothing inherently rational or irrational about optimism -- irrationality comes if your map doesn't show you the territory; that is, if you think things that aren't true. Sometimes situations call for optimism, sometimes pessimism. Sometimes you don't have enough data for either.

And yeah, you've got stuff like the planning fallacy, which states that humans tend to be too optimistic even though actual events may not suggest that reaction. But equally can you be too pessimistic. Some people wallow in pessimism, though they have little to be unhappy or skeptical about. That is irrational. Being optimistic to the degree that you have cause to be is not.

As an aside, I wouldn't be surprised if being optimistic (not to the point of blatant irrationality, but just as a general rule) has a small positive impact on events in your life. Call it the cheerfulness effect.

Would you enjoy discussing it in the IRC? I find that I am better in a back-and-forth conversation.

I did ask for everyone to wait. I suppose people went to sleep.

~2 years of missing time due to SSRI's.

I know it's off topic, but can you elaborate on this? Did they cause memory problems, or were the side effects just so debilitating that you feel like those years were completely wasted?