Yours are colourful, nice. By the way, do you have a valid argument to justify the billions of animals currently being cruelly imprisoned, abused, rapped, mutilated and murdered for no other reason than human enjoyment?
Nope, not really. It's just not really a cause that I invest much time in, oooor even care about, to be honest! I'm super into race relations, though, as you might have seen here on hubski. But I know people can find that grating, which is why I try not to constantly bring it up. Sometimes it's hard - there are lots of instances where I feel like race could be mentioned in a particular conversation, but then I step back, think, "would this further progress in what I feel is an important issue?", realize that doing so would be detrimental, and then let it go. Because there'll be another day for that conversation to occur. I mean it's muthafuckin Black history month, bruh. I might NEVER shut up this February. But imagine if I followed you around from comment to comment going "THIS IS THE WHITEST SHIT EVER"to everything you said, then linking to a bunch of Black Panther videos? It'd probably bother the shit outta you. (and by the way, just as a personal opinion, veganism is high up on my list of whitest shit ever) I'm just saying - and this is the second time I've said this, in like, the past week on hubski - pick and choose your battles! It'll work out really well for you in the long run. I agree it's a conversation to be had, but you go about it in an accusatory manner. And like I said, I get it - being in Boulder, though an absolute bastion for veganism, has also gotten me to a point where I feel like actively resenting White people - and that shit isn't right. Don't let it happen to you in regards to veganism.
I hear you, I'd have thought that coming from a background of discrimination would make you want to stop discrimination going on in other facets of life. If it's something you're truly passionate about I don't think you should shut up. I understand how annoying that'd be, I haven't chased anyone around with animal rights links though. However in your context, if I was being racist, I'd be deserving a damn good chase and serious educating. I don't insult people, I rarely use curse words, I try to state facts and never make it personal. Yet people keep accusing me of being aggressive and accusatory and I don't understand where or when I've been aggressive and accusatory. Can you please give me examples? I really don't want to come across that way. Sure, I know how inconvenient it is to break the flow of a conversation about meat eating with a sign asking to be kind to animals, but is that aggressive? I mean if you came across a racist conversation would you not say something? This is the first time I've heard this. Why do you think that? Do you think wanting to live compassionately towards all beings is elitist? Thanks for the warning but I don't understand the connection.I mean it's muthafuckin Black history month, bruh. I might NEVER shut up this February.
But imagine if I followed you around from comment to comment going "THIS IS THE WHITEST SHIT EVER"to everything you said, then linking to a bunch of Black Panther videos?
I agree it's a conversation to be had, but you go about it in an accusatory manner.
...just as a personal opinion, veganism is high up on my list of whitest shit ever
...being in Boulder, though an absolute bastion for veganism, has also gotten me to a point where I feel like actively resenting White people - and that shit isn't right. Don't let it happen to you in regards to veganism.
I had to think a lot about this. Hmm. No. Honestly comparing some of the shit I've gone through to animal discrimination is, frankly, a little insulting. And I'm also busy trying to stop the discrimination going on in the facets of my life. Dude. DUDE. Yes, you have. It's the whole reason anyone here is ticked off in the first place. It's easy for rich, wealthy White people to abide by Veganism. Minorities that are poor and have crappy access to food, have a hardy time becoming Vegans. But - and this brings up that "accusatory" thing I was talking about - by your definition, those people are shitstains for not doing a better job not eating chicken and stuff. You have to be in a position of privilege to be vegan. It's expensive as fuck and hard to keep up when you've got $20 to eat this week and the closest Sprouts or whatever is 30 miles away. Again, this is what I'm talking about. It's passive aggressive as hell. Stahp. I'm saying that when you go day in and day out wondering why don't people care about this as much as me?, you start equating that to them not caring about your cause whatsoever. Then you start to look at them negatively, then you get resentful and angry because they don't care as passionately about the same things as you do. And it's bad, not every White person is a racist sack of shit, not every non-Vegan is a cold-blooded reverse-Hannibal out to murder all the chickens in the world. Don't have much else to say.I'd have thought that coming from a background of discrimination would make you want to stop discrimination going on in other facets of life.
I haven't chased anyone around with animal rights links though.
This is the first time I've heard this. Why do you think that?
Do you think wanting to live compassionately towards all beings is elitist?
I don't understand the connection.
Why is it insulting? No one is saying that the discrimination you experience is the same as the discrimination against animals. Recognising cruelty against other species in no way diminishes the recognition of the discrimination that you endure. If anything it's an extension of. Please show me where I have chased anyone. You make it sound like I've been targeting individuals when what I've done was posting non-offensive, non-graphic images on a couple of posts. You make it sound like beans, rice, potatoes, carrots, kale, onions, fruit, nuts and seeds are prohibitly expensive! Sure there are expensive specialist vegan foods, the same way that there are expensive meats but you don't need them to have a balanced diet. The staples of a vegan diet are very accessible. This was a genuine question. I honestly don't understand how you interpreted it as passive aggressive. This says more about you than me. That is absolutely true and I completely agree. And that is why I don't feel that every meat eater is evil. I do however believe that a lot of the negative defensive reaction of meat eaters is irrational. The subject of animal cruelty is highly stigmatised because it requires a serious re-evaluation of our beliefs and even tradition. It's not an easy thing to do, it is a lot easier to chase after the person who triggered that feeling inside of you rather than having a serious introspection of why we do what we do and whether we need to do it at all.Honestly comparing some of the shit I've gone through to animal discrimination is, frankly, a little insulting. And I'm also busy trying to stop the discrimination going on in the facets of my life.
Dude. DUDE. Yes, you have. It's the whole reason anyone here is ticked off in the first place.
It's easy for rich, wealthy White people to abide by Veganism.
Do you think wanting to live compassionately towards all beings is elitist?
Again, this is what I'm talking about. It's passive aggressive as hell. Stahp.
... not every White person is a racist sack of shit, not every non-Vegan is a cold-blooded reverse-Hannibal out to murder all the chickens in the world.
I know I said that I had nothing else to say, but I can't let this one slide. First of all, that's not true. To consistently keep a Vegan diet is still expensive. I don't know what your definition of "poverty" is, but I know for a fact it's too poor to sustain a vegan diet. Secondly: It's like you're purposefully ignoring other aspects of being hella hella poor. You have less time to cook things. You have less time to get groceries. Sometimes you have to choose between food and rent. This is where that whole privileged thing I was talking about comes into play, you're not recognizing any of these things.You make it sound like beans, rice, potatoes, carrots, kale, onions, fruit, nuts and seeds are prohibitly expensive!
I am perplexed by this perspective. Could you, or thenewgreen, please help me understand it? Any restricted diet will be more expensive than simply eating whatever food is cheapest. When I can't find any leftovers, my lazy meal is a can of corn, a can of black beans, and a can of chick peas mixed together with some hot sauce. It costs about three bucks. The ingredients last forever in the closet, even if the power goes out. They will survive a long bike ride in the heat of summer, even if I drop them or leave them outside overnight. They require no appliances to prepare, just a can opener and a spoon and two minutes. Substitute canned tomatoes, carrots, green beans or mushrooms according to taste. It's not ideal dining. But do you have a meat-based recipe that can match this in terms of cost, convenience, or nutrition? I know there are food deserts where Trader Joe's does not venture. In those neighborhoods of liquor stores and pawn shops, can people find ground beef or a frozen bird but not bread, peanut butter, rice or potatoes? There's only one realistic place for the inner city poor to buy meat, and it's not Morton's Steakhouse. Even if we don't care about animal welfare, should we celebrate a vast industrial meat infrastructure which enables the fast food industry to provide cheap, convenient, and unhealthy food to the poor? (Uh, maybe?) The poor shopper who cares about animal welfare need not always choose between eating and good conscience. I believe we can learn from sources that use extremely annoying tactics to promote a self-righteous message, so here is PETA's list of vegetarian fast food options: http://www.peta.org/living/food/chain-restaurants/ In contrast to canned plants, sofritas are pretty good.
Yeah, sure I'll just head over to Trader Joe's or Whole Foods, when I live in rural, poor ass USA. But even then, I could just go to my liquor store and get Peanut butter... oops, can't do that because Jiffy contains honey and honey is not vegan. And I totally would take the time to care about the amount of honey in Jiffy, if a rat hadn't just bit my sister Nell.
Look at this way, then. When you are poor, YOU DO NOT GIVE A SHIT. When you are poor, you are literally unable to process other areas of your life because you're so fucking TIRED. This is where the whole privilege thing pops up again! You don't HAVE to worry about poverty, so you (royal you, not actual you, wasox) get to harp about animals and shit. These people don't, so they get whatever is closest and cheapest. Sometimes they have to think about kids, who don't WANT corn and fucking black beans, you monster. So, they want tasty food that's cheap, while also able to get them through a day. Where do you find that?
Thank you for explaining. When you said "To consistently keep a Vegan diet is still expensive," I naively thought you were talking about budgeting. Now I see you are shouting the more nuanced view that poor people cannot "afford" – in terms of time, energy, and attention – to live by strict dietary ideals. I agree. My kid eats meat, eggs and cheese every day and I would not welcome the challenge of keeping him on a vegan diet, especially if I were also struggling to pay the bills. You and thenewgreen seem to be responding to a jerk who says poor people should go hungry rather than eat animal products. I have not seen that view expressed on Hubski. Perhaps it was implied, or I missed it. For my part, I will state that: • Poor people should be allowed to do whatever they need to do to get by. • Hunters should be allowed to enjoy their sport. • Alaskans should be allowed to eat polar bear. I could go on to discuss matadors, circuses, and snake charmers. Eventually, the only thing left to talk about will be ... the majority of meat consumption in this country. I believe that most meat is consumed by people who could comfortably reduce their consumption and thereby reduce suffering. Do you think they should?
We aren't really talking about meat, we are talking about life and death. So, the question is l, "which life and death provides the least suffering?" Can we just accept that death is coming for every creature on this planet? Are we going to insert human criteria of what suffering is on animals? How are we measuring "happiness?" If life is so precious, and we don't want to kill these animals then isn't the giving of life precious too? There's no doubt that a tremendous amount of "life" is given by people that raise livestock. Many of these "sentient" beings would have never been brought into sentience in the first place, the joys of their lives, the happiness that they have would have never been had, had it not been for us consuming their cheese, eggs and eventually their meat. My consumption of animal products creates life. Now, the question is what type of life does it create? If I'm consuming products that are factory farmed, where chickens are kept in pens where they can't move and their beaks are cut off and they are pumped full of hormones, well I will not even try to argue that that is a life worth creating. However, and I have mentioned this before, I have a cousin that owns what she calls a "moreganic" farm. The criteria that they set forth is far more stringent than "organic." In regards to their livestock, they raise chickens and I daresay that no chickens will ever be loved more. Do they harvest their eggs? Yes, they do and they sell them at a farmers market. Do they eventually eat the chickens? Yes, they do. But, would that chicken have died anyway? Yes. Would that chicken have lived had they not had their farm? No. So, was the life that this chicken lived worth creating? Well, I happen to have interviewed one of their hens:
Me: thanks for doing this chicken, I appreciate it. Hen: sure, no problem Steve glad to help bridge the divide Me: so how do you feel about my cousin taking your eggs and selling them? Hen: yeah, I thought you might ask that. Well, to be really frank, I'm a chicken and I honestly don't give a shit nor do I have any understanding of what is occurring. However I am good at laying eggs Me: thanks for the candor. Are you glad you exist? Hen: again Steve, I really have no understanding of the question however, I will say that I like to run around in the yard and peck at the earth and sometimes, in June, the sun shines just right through my large, warm and cozy henhouse so that the light bounces against the wall and I swear it looks like a Picasso light drawing. Me: how do you feel about your inevitable death at the hands of your captors? Hen: They're not my captors, they keep me safe from the fox and the Hawk, they love me and would never hurt m....... Baaawk"!! Me: Hi cousin, that hen didn't even see you coming. You snapped its neck so quickly. It thrashed once and now almost seems to have a smile on its beak. Oh look at the sun break through the henhouse... She was right about that.
Your cousin's farm sounds wonderful. If I could go to a Chipotle that sourced poultry from there, I could enjoy a chicken burrito without a twinge of guilt. Thanks for the investigative report. Now that we have covered niche compassionate farms, I could go on to discuss modern hunter-gatherer tribes, eating roadkill, and people with allergies to fruit and vegetables. Eventually, the only thing left to talk about will be ... the majority of meat consumption in this country. I believe that most meat is consumed by people who could comfortably reduce their consumption and thereby reduce suffering. Do you think they should?
On February 2, 2015, thenewgreen wrote:I believe that most meat is consumed by people who could comfortably reduce their consumption and thereby reduce suffering. Do you think they should?
ANSWER THE QUESTION: ...If you don't answer the actual questions above, it will speak volumes.
The new green is at a government conference but I will reply. Yes, I think that when possible, people should reduce suffering as they are aware of it existing. Just passed up fried chicken and had salad. I did this prior to reading this for the reason stated above.
I didn't realise you meant that poor! I don't see being able to afford basic necessities as a privilege but I now understand why you'd think that if you have to choose between rent and food. May I ask what is it that you eat if you can't afford basic vegetables? What do you find that is cheaper than vegetables?
The question "Do you think wanting to live compassionately towards all beings is elitist?" is purposely phrased to put the questionee on the defensive. When you phrase a question or statement to make your position seem more holy, you insult the people you debate with. Here are a few examples: I haven't yet sifted through your many other threads on this matter. I will update this list as appropriate.I honestly don't understand how you interpreted it as passive aggressive
easier to chase after the person who triggered that feeling inside of you rather than having a serious introspection of why we do what we do and whether we need to do it at all
do you have a valid argument to justify the billions of animals currently being cruelly imprisoned, abused, rapped, mutilated and murdered for no other reason than human enjoyment?
I'm a lot nicer when I'm not being pitch forked by a crowd simply for asking to reconsider torturing animals.
Can you not see the disproportionate reaction of outrage to my method of calling attention to the issue and the complete complacency to the unnecessary suffering of farmed animals?
What more noble motive than wanting to reduce cruelty, suffering and death do you want?
putting our own pleasure ahead of another species well being and the stubbornness of the human ego to admit it. And then I'm the unreasonable, inconvenient one.
I truly don't care what you think about my way of forming sentences in my second language. Since when is it a crime to use words to defend the defenceless?
See what I did there? : ) I don't have to fight for the moral high ground for as long as you keep attacking me instead of having the guts to engage with the actual debate of animal abuse.
How can you exist? How can someone so blind to how they come across, to how their arguments hurt their cause, to how other people can have different opinions ever possibly exist? Not once in your conversations here have you ever even vaguely entertained the thoughts of others. You view Hubski as a platform for your views and your views alone, and cry "Persecution!" when others dare to speak. You demonise others, and act shocked when they demonise you as well. You labour under the impression that your tactics are excused for your "noble purpose." Your crusade has, so far, accomplished nothing but antagonising a community that has done nothing but talk to you. Your opinions are not worthless, but you are. You are a coward who knows nothing of struggle. I have nothing more to say to you.
Thank you for reinforcing my previous point. You have to be a pretty tortured person to deliberately try to hurt another (human) being. Much love to you.
"I don't insult people, I rarely use curse words, I try to state facts and never make it personal. Yet people keep accusing me of being aggressive and accusatory and I don't understand where or when I've been aggressive and accusatory." one time a while ago you said something mean about vegetarianism and I mean yeah it's ont quite veganism but man you gotta pick your battles and stuff vegetarianism is probably the best you're gonna get most of the time also, though, probably ignore me I'm very very drunk
Are you referring to the following comment, in this thread? I explained extensively why I think vegetarianism is a contradiction. Why did you find that "mean"?Congratulations for making the connection between compassion, environment and health and not stopping at the half-hearted contradiction that is vegetarianism.