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comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  3603 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The ideal community, should you move to it, or create it?

A responsible citizen doesn't impose his will and desires on fellow citizens.

Finding it is a lot less work than building it. Bonus: you get to discover new things.





TheGreatAbider16  ·  3602 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    A responsible citizen doesn't impose his will and desires on fellow citizens.

this gets really hairy though, doesn't it? Any dedicated reformer is trying to "impose his will and desires on his fellow citizens" even if one defines that as trying improve lives and general well-being. Are those who who fight, for example, for racial equality in racially-divided and racist communities irresponsible citizens? I have trouble with that idea. It kind of sounds similar to the old "If you don't like it then you can get out" mantra, which I think is narrow-minded and counterproductive to progress.

I might even go as far as to say that a responsible citizen has an obligation to try to improve his community and surroundings as he sees fit. Your city doesn't have any sustainable urban gardens and few local grocers? Start an urban garden, educate your peers, and support the local grocers, even if all the Walmart employees and big-business fans in the area don't like it. Does your city have air that's dangerous to breathe because of smog? Fight for stricter emissions laws in your state. Is that imposing will and being irresponsible?

kleinbl00  ·  3602 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Any dedicated reformer is trying to "impose his will and desires on his fellow citizens" even if one defines that as trying improve lives and general well-being.

Torquemada was a dedicated reformer.

Ted Cruz is a dedicated reformer.

David Duke is a dedicated reformer.

Rosa parks "imposed her will on fellow citizens" as did Gandhi. However, in both cases they were less than citizens because they were prohibited from doing things that others could.

If I want to marry a man, I'm not "imposing my will" on other citizens - they won't even know I'm married to a man unless they ask me. However, if I want to pass a law saying men can't marry men, then I'm "imposing my will on other citizens."

    I might even go as far as to say that a responsible citizen has an obligation to try to improve his community and surroundings as he sees fit.

What on earth does "impove his community and surroundings" have to do with "impose his will on other citizens?" Particularly in the context of comic stores - someone can love the hell out of a comic store but there's a big difference between loving comics and deciding that opening a comic store will make the neighborhood love comics. What if instead of a comic store he wanted to open a strip club? Or a kennel? Or a supercross track? Or a marijuana dispensary? Or a methadone clinic?

    Your city doesn't have any sustainable urban gardens and few local grocers? Start an urban garden, educate your peers, and support the local grocers, even if all the Walmart employees and big-business fans in the area don't like it.

To which I say

    Finding it is a lot less work than building it. Bonus: you get to discover new things.

Let's be clear - I'm not advocating "never change things." I'm not advocating "don't rock the boat." I'm pointing out that if you like comics, go to a comics store. If you want to open a comics store, open a comics store. But don't open a comics store because you want to buy comics. Stores are a lot of work. And believe it or not, there might be people in the neighborhood that don't like comics and should you open a store, you're likely to meet them.

I dunno. I'm frankly appalled that a flippant three sentence comment in response to the question "should you move or create your ideal community" has me painted as some sort of jim crow apologist. Feelin' awfully mutey this morning.

TheGreatAbider16  ·  3602 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Ok I see the distinction you're making between being a reformer and imposing will on others. That makes a lot of sense.

    I'm pointing out that if you like comics, go to a comics store. If you want to open a comics store, open a comics store. But don't open a comics store because you want to buy comics. Stores are a lot of work.
Alright I get that. Stores certainly are a lot of work, and finding what you're looking for is certainly easier than trying to create it.

    Let's be clear - I'm not advocating "never change things."
Well surely not. I was having some trouble understanding exactly what you were advocating for, that's all.

    I dunno. I'm frankly appalled that a flippant three sentence comment in response to the question "should you move or create your ideal community" has me painted as some sort of jim crow apologist. Feelin' awfully mutey this morning.

Huh. I was just looking for some clarity there. Racial division was the first example that came to mind, I had no intention of painting you as a "Jim Crow apologist..." Mute away I suppose if I've so terribly offended, and you've taken it so personally, but that was not what I had in mind.

OftenBen  ·  3602 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    impose his will and desires on fellow citizens.

So government, by definition, can only be composed of irresponsible citizens?