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comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  3694 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Our cities' water systems are becoming obsolete. What will replace them?

So I know about water treatment because I did acoustics for ten years. And since water treatment tends to stink, people tend to hate it. And since it's nigh unto impossible to regulate stink, people tend to find new ways to oppose them. And since treatment plants are also loud and since loud is stupid easy to regulate, acoustical consultants end up doing a lot of work with wastewater treatment plants.

For example, the article talks about what a hard time the Pacific Northwest is having getting new wastewater treatment plants and infrastructure. As someone who's in the project pictures for Brightwater, I kinda gotta call bullshit. After all, that's two billion dollars worth of wastewater treatment, built on top of former junkyards.

    Isn't it important enough for the city to overcome some locals? I get that there are a lot of local factors at play here, but I mean, if we can do it like this... there must be a way.

Dutch civil hierarchy isn't American civil hierarchy. Europe, post-war, tends to have a lot more top-down organization (at least, from my understanding). On the other hand, American civil organization is inverted: local rules matter more than municipal rules matter more than state rules and the most stringent rules win. Also keep in mind that localities band together over stuff like this to keep the outsiders out: Part of my gig with Brightwater was taking measurements of existing sites to evaluate environmental impact. And at one locality that really didn't want a 54MGD wastewater treatment plant, I literally had a gun pulled on me by the local cops to get me to leave. As in, they wouldn't let me take my state-mandated measurements and demonstrated their reticence by pointing lethal weaponry at me.

(I kept my "service above and beyond the call" plaque for a while after that gig ended)

    Sidenote: holy balls y'all use a shitload of water. The average daily consumption in America is 340L (90 gallons) per capita. Even the rainiest state, Louisiana, still uses 300L (80 gallons) per capita. Average Dutch person uses 140L (33 gallons) per day...

I'm not doubting your figures, but I would like to know where you sourced them. There's a discussion there, too. I mean, water means agriculture. What does the US produce? Corn, potatoes, wheat and soy. What does the Netherlands produce? Tulips.

    I do find it ridiculous that you can't install cisterns. Are rainwater barrels illegal, too?

Santa Fe, NM: Rain barrels mandatory.

Colorado, 3 hours north: Rain barrels illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainwater_tank#Water_supply_augmentation

Los Angeles pulled out the rails when Goodyear and Standard Oil wanted to sell cars, and made rain barrels and catchment illegal when they dug the canal. Chinatown in a nutshell.

    Before the Rainwater Capture Act of 2012, residents could only collect rainwater if they received a permit from the SWRCB. Under the California Water Code Section 1200, residents and businesses who did not receive a permit could be penalized for misusing and illegally collecting water that legally belongs to the state.

http://www.raingutterprosinc.com/los-angeles-water-harvesting-laws





veen  ·  3694 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Dutch civil hierarchy isn't American civil hierarchy. Europe, post-war, tends to have a lot more top-down organization (at least, from my understanding).

Yes, that's very true. We had a particularly strong proactive government after the war, as they took the lead in rebuilding the nation and kept their power in the decades after. If the central government really wants to, they can subdue all the smaller governments to push plans of nationwide importance, like our only high-speed line from Amsterdam to Rotterdam, Brussels and onwards. The high-speed line was deemed important enough to cut through multiple protected natural areas and local towns - a big middle finger to any NIMBYs (and we don't have gun laws like yours so that wasn't an option either). I don't see that ever happening in the States.

The water numbers are from Wikipedia: this vs this. I think the main contributing factor is that the amount of agricultural land that needs water is much, much higher per person and that it skews the numbers. But it can't contribute for all the difference, right?

kleinbl00  ·  3693 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's interesting. One of them is "water use" and the other is "urban water use" but you're right - there's a lot of water use in the US comparatively speaking. Thing is, though, I spent a week in Amsterdam back intheday and I don't recall people using, like, half as much water. So I'm wondering if it's a processing thing?

veen  ·  3693 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I've attempted to research this more, but it is quite difficult to pin down why the difference is so huge. This report by the EPA breaks the US water use down to these components:

And a similar image I found from my water company, but in liters (4L is ~1 gal):

We use 50L for showering, you guys use 100L. We barely use any water for the garden - I think that's in the 1,8L or in the 5,3L slice - while you use 100L. I would assume most of that difference is in the efficiency of the showerheads and washing machines. I've noticed that the toilets here use much more water than back home.

kleinbl00  ·  3692 days ago  ·  link  ·  

So fully half the difference is the lawn. That figures.

The US has steadily been switching over to low-water washers; that'll help, too. And Americans definitely shower more than anybody else. It isn't the showerheads, Americans straight up shower more often for longer.

So... explain your toilets. Because I remember the toilets in Amsterdam being the worst design I'd ever seen in my life. That whole "poop on a shelf and hope the water washes it away after like five flushes" thing was really weird to me.

veen  ·  3692 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well, most modern toilets don't use the shelf-thing. But I think it's mainly to prevent Neptune's Kiss.

One thing that I noticed about the toilets here that you guys hold so much water in the toilet itself. It's almost a damn swimming pool.