Normally, I'll make these podcasts and then steve will set them to video and we will then share them. However, it's been far too long since I asked the participants to share their thoughts on spirituality and religion for me to not share what I've compiled. Therefore, I'd like to share the podcast audio with you now and I hope that you'll also be excited to see it put to video in the not too distant future. (steve is in Norway right now having a well earned adventure, I'm sure).
So, the question to the community is this: What is the difference, if any, between spirituality and religion? And, what role has either played in your life? Are you spiritual? Are you religious? If not, how would your describe yourself in this area?
A HUGE thanks to:
kleinbl00, rob05c, lil, humanodon, steve, theadvancedapes, hootsbox and mk.
I look forward to your thoughts in the comments.
Some say that spiritual connection or a feeling of oneness can be known through meditation. So it doesn't have to be just a belief in someone's mind but something that is tangible on a subjective level. Some have near death experiences that touch them and change them dramatically, like brain scientist Jill Bolte Taylor who survived to tell her story. Then there's quantum physics. The two slits experiment shows how observing (or not) the experiment affects the end result. Suggesting that there's some connection between the observer and reality. Considering that all that is physical came from the same dot of energy (ie The Big Bang) the theory that all is still interconnected on some level, is not that far fetched. After all our senses and measuring devices are only capable of interpreting a small portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum. I'm agnostic but really enjoyed Eckhart Tolle's books. The best description of spirituality I've read after the following Einstein's quotation: There you go, plenty of subject suggestions for future podcasts : )"A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
I think you should revisit your interpretation of reasons double slit experiment. The observer for example does not need to be. conscious or human in order for the duality to become apparent. More importantly the phenomenon shows a divide between classical physics and behavior at the quantum scale. Giving an experiment the ability to decide or otherwise prove consciousness is dangerous.Then there's quantum physics. The two slits experiment shows how observing (or not) the experiment affects the end result. Suggesting that there's some connection between the observer and reality. Considering that all that is physical came from the same dot of energy (ie The Big Bang) the theory that all is still interconnected on some level, is not that far fetched. After all our senses and measuring devices are only capable of interpreting a small portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum.
I think the interpretation is up for debate. Classic science doesn't like the word "consciousness" because it's not something tangible but it is an undeniable part of our experience and sooner or later we'll have to agree on how it fits in our perceived physical reality. Here's how a couple physicists interpreted it. Nobel Prize Winner physicist Eugene Wigner said: The very study of the external world led to the conclusion that the content of the consciousness is an ultimate reality." Another physicist's word, Werner Heisenberg:"When the province of physical theory was extended to encompass microscopic phenomena, through the creation of quantum mechanics, the concept of consciousness came to the fore again: it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.
"Natural science does not simply describe and explain nature; it is a part of the interplay between nature and ourselves; it describes nature as exposed to our method of questioning. This was a possibility of which Descartes could not have thought, but it makes the sharp separation between the world and the I impossible."
I tend to think of spirituality as the pursuit of the transcendent, or perhaps the numinous. Religion, on the other hand, is specifically a belief system )often incorporating spirituality) about the nature of the universe, existence, and the divine. Personally, in the past I've been both spiritual and religious (I was raised Methodist), but I've sort of moved past my religion now. It didn't have much to do with my decision to leave the church*, but an interesting thing I've noticed in retrospect is that while spirituality has certainly helped me survive certain experiences or get through tough times, I didn't get anything close to that from religion. So it's interesting that religion for me was never really a source of comfort. Actually, there's one notable exception to that - I don't remember exactly when, but at some point during a worship service a couple years back I felt incredibly connected to the larger community of believers and humanity as a whole. So religion in that case served as sort of a jumping-off point that led me to the spiritual, which I think it is for a lot of people. * I use the phrase "leave the church" figuratively; I still attend church in spite of my non-theism. P.S. I don't think I'll ever tire of hearing y'all's voices. So interesting putting a sound to the name! And these podcasts have consistently been amazingly well-produced, so cheers for that TNG, steve, et al.
I never cared about church, but I did attend semi-regularly from the ages of 6 to 12. I spent that time reading the Bible, because our pastor said essentially the same thing every day after saying a slightly different verse. Interestingly, my parents would never have let me read something like Stephen King at that age but they happily let me bury my nose in the Old Testament. But anyway yeah -- use that time to read the Bible cover to cover, if you haven't already. It's damned interesting.
I think spirituality is analogous to sexuality in many ways. For some people, sexuality defines them, or even controls them. Some, it's a part of who they are, but they don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. Still others are asexual, by biology or choice. I think both sexuality and spirituality affect who we are, and are part of our humanity. But at the same time, I don't think anyone voluntarily asexual or a-spiritual is "missing out" or living an unfulfilled life. Our humanity is what we make it.
So I just got an iTunes receipt for George Michael Faith, it was a strange moment..,
I am an ex-muslim. I used to go to Quran school when I was in elementary school. I didn't think about why I was doing it back then. My friends did and my father was happy that I went. I got hooked on games and lost interest in learning long texts. I liked the stories, but I was supposed to learn long texts, so I stopped going. No one was sad. But it didn't stop there, with time, I started doubting what I was told at school (we all had mandatory islam classes). So I asked, how do you proof to me that god exists? The teacher got mad, called my father, told him that I am a non-believer and that he should school me more. Students at school took me right away to the library and showed me passages from the Quran that should prove to me that god exists. It sounded all so unlogical, but they wouldn't stop, so I made a decision... put on the face that they want to see, you will be gone soon. I pretended to believe in god, and I still do whenever I go for a visit, it keeps me out of trouble. This made my stance to religion, fath, and spirituality a negative one. Until I had an experience that I would define as spiritual, I took MDMA for the first time, and I had a feeling of connectedness with every single person in the room. Of course this effect was due to massive amounts of oxytocin in my brain, so it was in a way "fake". But it was not. Knowing that I could have this feeling and even define it as something "spiritual" was proof enough for me that spirituality is something everyone carries with him. I think that a spiritual experience is an intense and eye-opening experience. It varies from person to person (because we define what is spiritual for us and what is not). For me, it has something to do with my feeling of being connected to other humans somehow.
The other week theadvancedapes joined our Hubski call to catch up and to share what it is he is working on etc. One of the the things he has been studying are hallucinogens and how their study has been neglected. theadvancedapes, what is your take on drugs and their ability to connect us to the realm of the "spiritual?" Have your thoughts on spirituality and the existence of some higher power/force been changed by your research of hallucinogens? Thanks for the comment Cumol, you have an experience that I do not think is unique to islam. There are kids that I grew up with that had doubts about christianity but were forced to conceal them for fear of alienation within their family and even community. Good luck!
I think learning about the existence of DMT in particular has changed my views on a lot of things. In terms of experience people are going to other worlds and universes. That is a subjective fact as Benny Shanon said in "The Antipodes of Mind". And you will therefore be impressed by the DMT experience depending on whether you think subjectivity is an important property in our universe that needs to be explained. In my opinion, science undervalues subjectivity as a phenomenon because it doesn't really understand subjectivity. There are also outdated paradigms that hold research back. Either way, in my encounter with learning about psychedelics (which is still evolving) I feel like I can start to take spirituality seriously for the first time. The overall message from ayahausca appears to be "live in mystery" (which I could mean to be "live in the questions"), and it's nice to know that there is an entity in nature giving us that courage.
Since the day I tried MDMA, I have also experimented with Psilocybin (Magic Mushrooms) and LSD. And even though the effect is very different than MDMA, I can see where people might get a feeling of the experience being spiritual on hallucinogens. During my first LSD experience (it was in nature), I had a feeling of being connected to trees and grass. No idea what to do with this...
I spent what seemed like hours, but was actually the length of The Beatles Abby Road, talking with a tree at the banks of a lake in Michigan. I also ran my fingers through the water of the lake while sitting beside the tree. The next day I sat at the base of that same tree, baffled by the fact that the water was at least 20 yards away. LSD is a powerful thing, be careful and enjoy.
There is quite a lot that can be said here but then ..
What does that passage mean to you?I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.
-I'm assuming you are linking to that phrase and not the litany of advertisements there.
[Master Dogen related a] story about two Chinese Zen masters, Shigong Huizang (n.d.; Shakkyo Ezo in Japanese), and his younger Dharma brother, Xitang Zhizang (735-814; Seido Chizo in Japanese). Shigong asked
Do you know how to grasp space? The younger brother, Zhizang said
Yes I do. Shigong asked
How do you grasp it? Zhizang stroked the air with his hand. Shigong said
You don't know how to grasp space. Zhizang asked
How do you grasp it, older brother? Shigong grasped his younger brother's nose and yanked.
[It might even be read that he stuck his finger in the younger brother's nostril before pulling ..] Either way, Zhizang yelled in pain:
You're killing me! You tried to pull my nose off!
Since you like music, my friend, I refer you to Laurie Anderson .. ;) Shigong said
You can grasp it now!
My alarm went off around 11am EST today but I was grocery shopping and have since made the best damned lentils ever! But yeah... you're up!
Ugg, I'm in a mini-crunch before a meeting tomorrow, but I just finished my cuppa black tea, so here goes some stream of consciousness with a re-play your podcast in the background: Some small bit of perspective, up until about a month ago, this was my basic view of religion: Religion has been on my mind lately, since reading The Year of the Flood (God, when the fuck will thundara shut up about Atwood--when I get my next round of Audible credits and finish MaddAddam, that's when). SUMMARY The story is based around a group that combines the minimalist and agronomist lifestyle of hippies with a branch of Christianity where the rapture is replaced with a prophecy of Noah's ark. Take impending doom and promise your disciples that it will be caused by materialism, capitalism, and industrialization; only by rejecting luxuries and returning to the land may they be saved. YRASSMUS ANALYSIS It's not that crazy a prophecy, I've met more than a hundred people at this point who subscribe to components of these ideas. Be it vegetarianism due to CAFOs, urban farming due to GMOs, or tea and meditation due to SATs, to a large extent, the roots of these wants for a simpler lifestyle exist outside of any health, environmental, or economic concerns. Yet in the normal progression of maturation, most people are exposed to only sections of these ideas without understanding the larger philosophies that tie them together or how deep those ideas may alter their perspective every aspect of their life. Enter the preacher. Spirituality is as many of you have already said, and more. It's a cornerstone upon which a person can build a pillar of morality. It's a ground upon which you can ask yourself: "What would _Jesus_ do?", when all other persons have an element of unholy humanism to them. And when a person is lost, they at have the clerics to give them words of solace and guide them back to their community. That is not to say that religion is not without its flaws, nor is secularism without community, philosophy, or leaders. But historically, in times of darkness and despair, it was a beacon to some to light the way. And the same way that ideas may light the mind, religion (and the core -isms that have been isolated from it) can light ideas with a higher purpose than any ethos can hope to replicate. Though I am not a man of faith, I've felt my own semi-irrational rejections of industrialization and consumerism. Doesn't that make you want to get out from the cogs? SISYLANA Alright, back to Gibson assembly...
Do I think people should pursue bull-shit endeavors? No. But, I don't see a bunch of traffic and think of how we are all a bunch of cogs either. Spirituality is as many of you have already said, and more. It's a cornerstone upon which a person can build a pillar of morality.
It certainly can be, I agree with that. I think that once you start building a framework around it, it starts to become more akin to religion. Doesn't that make you want to get out from the cogs?
-You know, I get what the images are meant to make me feel, but it doesn't work on me. When I see a bunch of people in cars, in transit, in office buildings or walking the streets I think about how each of those cars, each of those offices and every one of those people on the street are carrying with them ideas, dreams, pursuits, love, heartbreak and passions that unfortunately, I may never get to know. If you speed up any system, back out of the minutia and in to the macro of anything it looks rote. Alright, back to Gibson assembly...
-Good luck with that!
Hehe, the cars actually remind me of electricity and circulation, it's the stairs and escalators that make me uneasy. By the way, have I mentioned to you yet that I am also now on EST? ;)Do I think people should pursue bull-shit endeavors? No. But, I don't see a bunch of traffic and think of how we are all a bunch of cogs either.
No. You aren't by chance in NC? Are you in Chapel Hill? Is that you looking through my window....?
I just set a timer on my phone titled, "thundara response"
Thank you, I really enjoy making these things. I'm ready to start another and I think I know what the topic will be... More to come. Hope you are well Ben!
Fascinating stuff. I especially appreciate the input of the believers, because it's a side of the story I've never really personally experienced.
Once again, great podcast. With regards to the question of whether or not spirituality is innate, I would say it is not. What is innate, however, is the human desire to understand the world around us and our place in it. How we go about satisfying this desire is what defines our spirituality, I think. Some believe in a higher power, some rely on human reason, but the goal for all is the same. As for future suggestions, I am still a fan of my idea here.
I like your suggestion, there are certainly enough scientists on the site to participate. It might be a nice juxtaposition to all the ice bucket stuff going on.Once again, great podcast.
Thank you!With regards to the question of whether or not spirituality is innate, I would say it is not. What is innate, however, is the human desire to understand the world around us and our place in it.
-I think that's true and ties in nicely with mk's comment at the end. It's sort of our natural condition.