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comment by mk
mk  ·  3761 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Religious groups want exemption from hiring LGBT after Hobby Lobby ruling

    I think our difference in opinion comes down to your higher tolerance for coercion.

Do you really? I hope not.

I believe our difference lies in our regard for consistency of social economic theory. IMO one of history's most repeated lessons is that the more that a society strives for (or is made to strive for) a logically consistent social economic approach, whatever the approach, the worse off those people are, and the longer that they strive to those ends, the greater the damage done. The reason being, is that application of theory on one level invariably leads to contradictions upon another. Here, for example, we have a medical system where all patients, able to pay or not, must be treated by law. Thus the costs incurred by those that cannot or do not pay, are shouldered by those that do, by law. If this proportion of those that do not pay grows substantial for some reason (perhaps costs outpace earnings), then you have a system that legislates a significant burden upon a specific population that arose out of one that sought to avoid such a development.

The examples for these kinds of evolution are plentiful, and dog every earnest implementation of a preferred socio-economic theory. It is no coincidence that every effort to enact communist policies leads to graft. Philosophers and college students should spend their time thinking about the merits of socio-economic theories, but policy makers should spend little, because the conclusions that such efforts produce have relatively no utility when compared to the vast amount of historical and observable data available, which increases day by day.

There are no points for philosophical consistency. To date, governments are demonstrably better agents of policing than NGOs, and NGOs are demonstrably better builders of automobiles. Perhaps this may one day change, but it won't happen overnight, and no thinking person with their ear to the ground would be caught unawares.

When we debate these questions, we are consistently expected to use current or historical circumstances to debate the merits of some greater philosophical truth. This is a exercise in self-deception. Although this exercise is not without merit, it should be understood that there is no greater philosophical truth. The belief that a greater socio-economic truth exists is rooted in faith. The value of an education in socio-economic theory is not based upon finding a 'best one', but such that an individual can identify and apply modes of thinking, and having a broad understanding of the logic behind these modes, create a unique approach that works best in the current situation. Unfortunately such nuance is out of political fashion.





wasoxygen  ·  3757 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I think our difference in opinion comes down to your higher tolerance for coercion.
    Do you really? I hope not.

I shouldn't assume that this is the entire reason for our difference in opinion. But I do think that you (like most people I talk to, and like myself in the past) oppose coercion in principle, but often overlook it in practice. Many people do not even find the word applicable to most government behavior, having accepted some idea of a social contract.

    Sam has a problem. He has a number of very poor nephews and nieces. He has been working with a charity organization to help them, but the organization needs more funding. So Sam goes out and starts demanding money from his neighbors to give to the charity group. If anyone refuses to contribute, Sam kidnaps that person and locks them in a cage.

It's not my place to convince you that you, or other people, are being coerced if you do not feel put upon. Maybe it isn't coercion if you don't object. And I don't intend to whine about myself as a victim; I am fortunate and comfortable and so far no one has thrown a flashbang grenade into my child's crib.

Here you have outlined a position stating that efforts at consistency in social theory leads to harm. I would dispute that the choice of, say, communism vs. democratic capitalism matters less to human welfare than the circumstance of how consistently the ideals of each model are applied. Of course, if you make enough of the right exceptions, you will get better results. How do you get the right exceptions? You can leave it to luck, but that doesn't inspire confidence. The alternative is to rely on carefully-thought-out policies for being advantageously flexible. In other words, another textbook political theory.

Though the moral and political issues are important, I prefer a more scientific approach of discussing practical, measurable indications of success in specific areas.

You assert one:

    governments are demonstrably better agents of policing than NGOs

Are you sure?

If you believe this, and it is not simply a matter of faith, you must have evidence for your belief. We have plenty of data about how policing in the United States works. You could argue that the bad examples are notorious exceptions to the norm, which is good enough to excuse some amount of misbehavior. But you go farther, asserting that the police we have are better than Brand X.

Government enforces a strict monopoly on most police activity, so it's hard to imagine what the alternative might look like, much less demonstrate that it is inferior. No doubt, there would be abuses. In my preferred dystopia, "Law enforcement agents will take advantage of their authority, abusing innocent people, and victims will face an uphill battle seeking redress. Now and then an especially outrageous case will lead to a large settlement for the victim, but do you think the law enforcement company will be shut down? Of course not; it will be a simple matter of apologizing to the community, implementing better training and standards, and reassuring investors and customers that the mishap won't happen again. Only the most abusive, incompetent, and corrupt law enforcement companies would ever be forced out of business."

The few glimpses we have of private policing are not exactly suggestive of Abu Ghraib, e.g. Paid Private Security in Oakland, CA.

Probably the biggest fear is that commercial cops will give better service to wealthier communities and poor folks will get the shaft. (This image is not so very hard to imagine, for some reason.) Do you feel that T-Mobile, Amazon, and Wal-Mart give unacceptable service to poor customers? Do you think destitute people get much benefit as free riders (not quite free, they pay taxes too) today? Would they not benefit from commercial police services provided to their less-poor neighbors? Would they appreciate having a no-frills 911 option over a no-answer 911, or worse?

If Brand X plausibly led to our country having 23.4% of the world's prisoners, many of them locked up for drug offenses widely perceived as unjustified, I would expect you to claim immediate victory in the argument.