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comment by mk
mk  ·  4673 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Do the inner workings of nature change with time?
I don't acknowledge that Mathematics is more fundamental than Physics, or the converse. IMHO, they are not comparable in that way. Mathematics is language, and physics is the attempt to describe things with that language. Pi can remain constant because it has the priviledge of not being an actual thing. There is no mathematical circle in existence. In fact, Pi is a limit that we can reach if we extrapolate a physical circle, (which is always imperfect), into a idealized one, but we don't need physical circles to derive it. It is a product of the language. This is true of all mathematical constants (ratios).

G is the result of a measurement. It is different than Pi, because it will not fall out of the language itself. You can derive Pi without ever picking up a circular object, but you cannot find G without measuring the interactions of objects.

Like G, time is a result of measurement.

That said, I am actually willing to entertain that time and cognition might be inextricably linked in the same way that green and eyesight might be inextricably linked. Of course 500nm EM wavelengths probably existed before eyes and a brain that could detect them, but the notion of green did not. Time might be similar. Time might be a transformation of a physical characteristic into one that is useful for cognition (In this case, it'd be related to entropy, I suppose). The physical reality that underpins time probably existed before cognition, but time itself as experience might be a product of our brains.





alpha0  ·  4673 days ago  ·  link  ·  
[Just a note that I haven't forgotten about this but have been banging heads with a compiler all day.

I did skim above (and the other one below) and will get back to you, but in the interim just lets get some definitions straight: Define what "cognition" means to you. What is the most fundamental act of cognition, in your conception?]

mk  ·  4663 days ago  ·  link  ·  
ping?

I've been waiting to hear your take on this. :)

alpha0  ·  4660 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Sorry, been taking a break from net for few days.
mk  ·  4660 days ago  ·  link  ·  
No worries. It can be a healthy thing. :)
mk  ·  4673 days ago  ·  link  ·  
For sure. No problem! Those are tough questions. Watching out for rabbit holes, I'll do my best.

Define what "cognition" means to you.

My first stab would be something like: 'localized reflection-based intent'. That is, a place that patterns in a way that is representative of external patterns, which results in the genesis of unique patterns (confined to and defined by the limits of that place) which result in a change of the environment immediately about that place.

I think I fell in! :D

What is the most fundamental act of cognition, in your conception?

In that sense, I'd say it would be: A mass moving under its own power in a manner that didn't reflect the mechanism of motion.

p.s. I like my second answer better.

alpha0  ·  4660 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I like the cognition definition. "Change in environment" is probably a conceptual fork in the road. But from that it does not follow that the most fundamental act of cognition is a mass moving .. In fact, you need to show the fundamental act of 'patterning' representative of an external something. I assert that partitioning (cleaving) is the most fundamental.
mk  ·  4659 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I assert that partitioning (cleaving) is the most fundamental.

You mean the separation between the patterns?

The problem I have here, and what lead me to movement, was reflection, and/or cause and effect. What is not a ripple in the pond?

I'll admit that 'movement that doesn't reflect the mechanism of motion' probably falls short, but the 'doesn't reflect the mechanism of motion' is a partition of sorts. Maybe just one that isn't inclusive enough. See what I mean about a rabbit hole?

But you said 'cleaving', and that suggests to me action. As if cognition is (or is the result of) the action of separation between the two patterns, making the external and the internal? How could that be defined? What makes my brain not a pond? :) My actions don't look like the effect of a pebble drop, but where does the disengagement occur? Or does it? Could it be a sufficiently obscuring complexity that depends on not just the perceived actor, but the observer? Is cognition in the eye of the beholder?

alpha0  ·  4653 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Whether cause and effect is entangled with cognition or whether it is more primary is interesting to note but here we just want to focus on cognition. Movement is another interesting phenomena, but let's first focus on getting a glimpse of what is "real". Cognition. To determine the nature of change and movement in terms of cognition is the possibility that is posed. Perhaps we can quickly dispose of the notion or likely be frustrated by the conflation of our role as both subjects and observers of the same "reality".

I simply assert the act of partitioning is the most fundamental cognitive action. [Related: is one a prime or composite ..] You mentioned "patterns" and I am simply saying "let's build one". Flip it and look at it another way (tool centric): I propose having a semantic cleaver in our tool-kit as being of primary importance to taking cognitive action.

mk  ·  4653 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Ok, I believe I can follow. So we are talking about symbolism as the seed of cognitive action? Symbolism, the building of patterns, is cognition?
alpha0  ·  4653 days ago  ·  link  ·  
A substrate of some kind is assumed. The insistence here is on disentangling from (the terminological) bias of (the perceived) materiality, but it is nearly impossible to avoid semantic quicksand. "Symbolism" can be folded into a nice (less hand wavy) category: reality as a text that is read by a reader. This is of course a biased view but it is a viable starting point. (It is pretty much the basis of "Western" meta-physics and religions.)
mk  ·  4644 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    A substrate of some kind is assumed.

But is it? This is something that I simply have to question. In fact, if I have any religion whatsoever, it's probably my refusal to concede that it works that way, :) -that there is anything that is not bootstrapped. I think that instead of defining existence, we should simply see if we can define context, and then the boundaries of context. It's my gut feeling that in the nature of these boundaries, we have answers to our question.

    reality as a text that is read by a reader.

This is also the seed of the many worlds interpretation, IMO. But, not simply just that. Although I dislike the 'many worlds' interpretation, I don't disagree with the motivation behind it. I guess this might be why (off the cuff here):

Cognition is a context. Instead of delineating between the pattern and the perceived, maybe there is more fruit to be found looking at the nature of that context as it relates to others. What are the boundaries of a cognitive scenario? Rather than define it from within, maybe we can define it from without.

In that sense, yes cognition is a reflection. But, if we are to compare it to other reflections that we don't consider to be cognitive scenarios, we'd find that the cognitive reflection is always incomplete. Maybe cognition isn't something remarkably greater than, but something remarkably less than. Maybe cognition is the gift of imperfect reflection? And what is gained by that imperfection, is space that must be filled. And what is it filled with? -The only thing available, other imperfect reflections. This is something that feels unique and free to me.