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comment by b_b
b_b  ·  3802 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: "US should join rest of industrialized countries and offer paid maternity leave" - Obama

    Unfortunately, employees are not offered this choice. But if they knew how badly they were being screwed by this rip-off wrapped in a humanatarian “Helps Working Families” label I think most of them would opt out.

Ha! This could be true of so many taxes. I wish to god I could opt out of most the portion of my taxes that go to DoD, for example. Unfortunately, we can't pick and choose where our collective money goes once it's taken from us, can we? (Well, actually we can if we have a very specific ideology, it seems. But for the rest of us who are in it together, I guess we're stuck.) Again, I think the important thing is empiricism, as is the case in all economic analyses. We need to look at the economic impact in other countries that have paid leave laws in place to see what impact they have (both economic impacts as well as social impacts). I don't have the time right now to do a lot of reading on the subject, but my guess is that it's not as simple as credits and debits on the paycheck (although I did enjoy reading your analysis; thank you for taking the time to pull all those numbers).

To clarify, my position is essentially that I support paid family leave, because I think part of the social contract is that we (civilized people) support children. It's the same reason I'm happy to pay property taxes to build and maintain schools, parks and museums, even though I don't have kids. If I looked strictly at the amount I pay in property tax vs. the amount I run on the track at the high school behind my house, I'm probably not getting a good deal. The social aspect is more important collectively. This isn't to say that I approve of waste; no one does. It's a tough calculus, but in this day and age where two working parents is the norm, I think it's important to think of what might benefit society in the changing landscape of the last half century. If my taxes have to subsidize maternity leave, I won't cry about it. But perhaps there could be a lifetime cap, or a mandated gap between usages, as there is with other types of welfare. Just spitballin'. I don't know.





wasoxygen  ·  3802 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I support paid family leave, because I think part of the social contract is that we (civilized people) support children.

Your position clearly includes the assumption that paid family leave supports children. That assumption is the very matter under debate here.

Do you have evidence for your belief that paid family leave supports children, that it is a net benefit? You mentioned that your cursory searches were inconclusive. As a champion of empiricism, are you not bothered by the thought of harboring a belief (held, in fact, before the inconclusive research) that is not supported by evidence? Is this belief simply an article of faith for you?

I don't doubt that having one or two parents home with a newborn will be good for the family. In any plausible alternative to PFL, this will still happen — employers do not expect mothers to deliver babies during lunch hour and then get back to work. (Or if they do, nothing in the California plan prevents this from continuing.)

Perhaps the PFL plan results in parents staying home with newborns longer when they can collect 55% of their salary compared to when it was unpaid. That would be good, but I would like to see evidence that this actually happens. The paper which appears to support PFL actually has some damning evidence. It reveals that 31% of "low-quality job" workers (who presumably get more benefit from PFL than high-quality job workers) receive half their salary during family leave without even participating in the plan. And among those who participate, only 84% actually receive the 55% salary they were promised. As kzcondor pointed out, 73% of the low-quality job workers who didn't use the plan were satisfied with the length of their leave, and the plan made no difference in satisfaction for the others.

The main disincentive, absent a PFL plan, for taking more unpaid time off to bond with a baby is the loss of income. So the main justification for PFL is financial: that it is paid family leave. If a typical career is 40 years, my calculations show that the worker will face a significant net financial loss, more than double the money contributed.

Does taking money from parents support children?