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comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  3942 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Forget State Lines — This Map Shows You How America is Really Divided - PolicyMic

Doesn't really matter, though, because the map is ostensibly about trade and economic cooperation zones. When comparing with Asia and Europe, there are a few important differences:

1) There are no borders between any of these regions whatsoever. The closest we get is truck scales (and agricultural inspection stations in Cali but those don't matter for trade).

2) America gets beat up like crazy for its mass transit system (James Kuntsler called it "a rail system Bulgaria could be proud of") but our freeways are second to none. Developed ostensibly for civil defense by providing for rapid military deployment and maintained under the charter of the USPS (really), the US Interstate freeway system allows me to travel from "Southern California" to "Cascadia" or "The Front Range" in a day's driving. No passports, no official interaction, nothing. That's Paris to Budapest, or Lisbon to Paris.

3) "Trade" is an exchange of goods and services. Let's arbitrarily divide it into "agricultural", "mineral," "manufactured," and "informational." These regions are agriculturally and geologically related: those two aspects of trade are things that they have in common internally. They're already trading elsewhere. Manufactured and informational goods are already traded globally. Really, these divisions make sense from a standpoint of logistics, and any carrier you care to find will agree - UPS, Fedex, Amazon, WalMart, Kroger, BNSF, they've all got their shit stacked in regions just like this. But that's because isochronally, it makes sense. A political or social "division" it is not.





smoorman1024  ·  3941 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Equal taxes in each megaregion is something to take into consideration. Take into account how the NorthEast Region works. Let's say New York City and New Jersey, both part of this huge metropolis. Because New Jersey has cheaper property and state taxes than the city, residents of New Jersey pay less but enjoy many of the benefits and public spending of New York when they come into the city and work. A megaregion could benefit if they could effectively tax New Jersey residents.

Where I'm from originally in Pittsburgh there is the same problem. The city of Pittsburgh has a transportation system that they pay most of the bill for, but they can only collect taxes from residents of the city, which is pretty small. If they could tax everyone in the county and everyone effectively in the economic region then they could more equitably pay for the bill for the common resources that everyone enjoys. In Allegheny county, you have people who decide to live just at the border of the county in a place called Peters Township. It's close enough to the city that you can commute to Pittsburgh, but you do not pay Allegheny taxes. Kind of unfair.

I disagree with your 3rd point.

kleinbl00  ·  3941 days ago  ·  link  ·  

A good argument, and one I hadn't considered. At the same time, diluting the authority of states is a 3rd rail. Even under the EU, the authority of individual municipalities and regional divisions increased rather than decreased (why you see more ads for Catalonia than you do for Spain, for example).

I recognize the problem, but the solution is politically untenable to say the least.

veen  ·  3942 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It mainly depends on what problem you want to tackle when it comes to dividing these regions. Scale is important here and decides the classification, sadly not mentioned in the article.

1) I think the article mainly wants to point out that regions should get more attention than they do now, so strict borders aren't really necessary. Besides, how would you compare this to Asia and Europe?

2) I'm a third into Geography of Nowhere. I should read further, quite like his decimation of the suburbs, albeit mostly anecdotal. US freeways are only beaten by the Japanese, but then again, those are heavily tolled roads and the US's sheer quantity is unmatched. I don't know if you know, but nearly all of Europe has passport-free border crossings. Schengen for the win.

3)Not sure what you're trying to say here, but the map is just a really vague, overall grouping of the areas based on what sorta fits on multiple areas. Not a map that has something to say about the subdivisions it claims to encompass.

kleinbl00  ·  3942 days ago  ·  link  ·  

1) FTA:

    In other words, these are the areas in which residents and policymakers are the most likely to have shared common interests and policy goals and would benefit most from co-operation with each other. It's especially important, because as the Regional Plan Association notes, "Our competitors in Asia and Europe are creating Global Integration Zones by linking specialized economic functions across vast geographic areas and national boundaries with high-speed rail and separated goods movement systems."

"Our competitors in Asia and Europe" are contending with political borders. That's the point of the discussion. America2050 is all about rail: "Starting in 2009, America 2050 has shaped the national debate on high-speed rail and developed recommendations on how national investments should be focused in corridors with the greatest demand for ridership. America 2050's research has also highlighted international lessons on high-speed rail for U.S. policy makers." The whole impetus of the map is to make you care about Europe and Asia.

2) The Schengen Area took 20 years to ratify because France and Germany were busy pissing all over each other's shoes and remains the primary deadlock keeping Turkey out of the EU. It is also the reason Spain and Greece are dragging down the European Economy. Judt for the win.

3) The map is a really vague, overall grouping of the areas that a lobbying group is attempting to use to shape public policy. It is entirely about "saying something" about the subdivisions it claims to encompass.

http://www.america2050.org/about.html

veen  ·  3942 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I reread it, can't believe I missed that sentence. I do agree with the A2050 that the regional aspect is working here in Europe and also in Asia, but that has I think also to do with the fact that the Megaregions as on the map are almost the same size as whole countries here. What's national here is regional on the East Coast.

Yeah, Turkey isn't going to get in because of it. But I can't complain about what we have now, the open borders system has increased the cross-national trade and cooperation and is a step closer to an EU that actually means something. How are you liking that massive book? I just started reading books on the geopolitical history and geography of Europe, too, but they are more academic than yours I'm certain.

I misunderstood what you tried to say, to me this seems mostly as a map to get regional thinking to a bigger audience than to say something about the subdivisions agriculture, mineral, manufacture etc. I thought you wanted to take this map and apply it to the subdivisions, which isn't really possible when there are too many differences between this overall map and the qualities of those subdivisions. An agricultural megaregion would look vastly different than this map.

kleinbl00  ·  3942 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The stupid thing is that Americans have been talking about "the great lakes REGION" and the "mid-Atlantic REGION" and the Gulf Coast REGION" for a hundred years or more. Putting it on a map doesn't really accomplish much other than going "yep, that's what it looks like from space." As a driver of policy, it's lacking.

Postwar is a great book. I'd put it up there with Bible and Sword and The Dead Hand. What's really interesting is he blows 800 pages (or so - I did it as an audiobook) basically laying out the chronology and causes of every move in post-war Europe, then finishes it all up with an "epilogue" paper that says, in no uncertain terms, "it's all because Europe hates Jews." And damned if he doesn't make some salient points.

I bought the first 7 volumes of Toynbee. That's gonna be a mutherfucker.

veen  ·  3942 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    As a driver of policy, it's lacking.

The map, or giving the region more attention? The former I agree with, it is not the best way to do this, but the latter I have to disagree. There is an underlying driver behind the regional approach, and it is the problem-centered policy. What I hope this article might accomplish -to what degree is debatable- is that policymakers or people active within the democratic system learn to value the region as a good geographical scale, to approach a plethora of problems. I'm not informed enough about those regions to know how they approach this.

Of course it is not the naming itself that is beneficial: just calling something a region isn't gonna make much of a change. What can be useful is the way the region is used. The noun region doesn't matter, it's important whether it is used as a tool or not. The region as a tool is what America2050 aims for, I think: to view the highspeed rail network ideas not on the nation scale as it is usually proposed, but on the scale that matters more to those actually using that rail network. The scale that can compete with the ubiquitous road and air infrastructure that is already laid down. Competing with the 3 to 4 hour trips, like it does in Asia and Europe.

I hope that some people will see this map and realize that focussing on the regions will be better for a lot of problems. Could have been done better, but hey, I didn't make it and it did spur some discussion.

kleinbl00  ·  3942 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    The former I agree with, it is not the best way to do this, but the latter I have to disagree.

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree. I'll say that American domestic policy is an utter shambles. I'll say that local is far easier to connect with than regional, and that "national" is antagonistic. It's far too easy to blame the other side of the country with everything that's wrong with policy.

    What can be useful is the way the region is used. The noun region doesn't matter, it's important whether it is used as a tool or not.

Well, speaking from a standpoint of high speed rail, addressing things as "regions" is fucked. I can get from Seattle to Portland on Amtrak for $30. It takes just barely as much time as driving. I can get from Los Angeles to San Diego for $25. It takes less time than driving. But from Los Angeles to Seattle takes four.fucking.days and costs twice what it costs to fly.

Our rail system is regional, and it's completely broken. The other industries I can think of do not think regionally, and they're a lot more functional. Airlines are "regional" but there isn't a single one that isn't part of some partner fleet. Airlines think globally/nationally, rather than regionally, and they function. Amtrak thinks regionally and it's a catastrophe.