Okay, I threw it a life preserver. Begin, Dee Squition.

1)

To understand the revolution, my research team has conducted dozens of structured interviews and behavioural experiments with youth in Paris, London and Barcelona, as well as with captured ISIS fighters in Iraq and members of Jabhat al-Nusra (Al-Qaeda’s affiliate in Syria).

So I'm not going to pick this whole thing apart like that because that's lame but I will say that anecdotal studies (such as It's Complicated by danah boyd, who uses no caps in her name) aren't really evidence-based, they're narrative-based and that narrative tends to emphasize the point that the researcher wants to make. "Dozens of interviews" makes you a journalist, not a statistician.

2) I've noticed a lot more press recently explaining the appeal of ISIS, the ideology of ISIS, the history of ISIS, the material support of ISIS. I think it's unfair to say "there is little recognition of its genuine appeal, and even less of the joy it engenders. " More accurately, I'd say that the world is currently going "huh, holy shit. People are still joining ISIS. What the fuck is going on?"

3) 80 years ago all the Kool Kidz were running off to join the Spanish Civil War. Prior to that, people were fuckin' in love with the Bolsheviks. It's not at all unusual for disaffected youth to fall in with counterculture. I can't be the only dude who remembers how many kidz went Fundie when they went off to college? There's this big "who the fuck am I" period between 15 and 30 that cults feed on. Religion welcomes it. Shit, all those tables at Freshman Orientation live for it. And hey -

4) waywardsamurai - drop a beat about all the bullshit associated with being a black muslim in Boulder so we can pepper that on top of growing up in the ghetto in Paris. It's bullshit being muslim right now. Somehow you became the bad guy. Funny thing - nobody held "christians" to account when David Koresh went batshit. 1.6 billion muslims in the world and about 1.6 billion of them have no interest in joining ISIS. Stupid thing is a lot of them are bodily running from ISIS but we've decided they're terrorists. You think that's disaffecting?

5) But that doesn't make it potent. That doesn't make it successful. That doesn't make it strategically advantageous. Why is it that clever people will talk about holy shit ISIS but they aren't even vaguely holy shit Boko Haram?

“Imagine if the Ku Klux Klan or Aryan Nation obtained total control of Texas and had at its disposal all the oil revenues, and used this money to establish a network of well-endowed schools and colleges all over Christendom peddling their particular brand of Christianity. This is what the Saudis have done with Wahhabism. The oil money has enabled them to spread this fanatical, destructive form of Islam all over the Muslim world and among Muslims in the west. Without oil and the creation of the Saudi kingdom, Wahhabism would have remained a lunatic fringe in a marginal country.”

- Bernard Fucking Lewis, whipping-boy of every Islamic writer

Look - we give the Saudis shit-tons of money for shit-tons of oil so they can buy shit-tons of guns with it. And they chop the hands off people who steal and stone adulterers to death and shit. Oh, but they don't have terrorists! Except, you know, 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers and shit. But fuckadoodledoo! ISIS! World-changing!

6) So sure. Preamble with Robspierre. Whip out Hobbes, follow up with Darwin, pull Terence The Slave out of your ass then flip in a little bit about pressure cookers, even though the Boston Bombers were Chechnynan and didn't give the first fuck about ISIS. Then wander into Burke and Hitler (?) (!). It won't change the fact that a bunch of angry dudes in the wasteland with Premiere and a sociopathic streak are a geopolitical tragedy, not a "world-altering revolution." Muthafuckin' followers of ibn Taymiyyah have wanted the goddamn Caliphate since the Ottomans fell.

Wanting something doesn't make it any more or less likely.

something something Sumer. Sweet jesus christ, this is Argument By the Tome.

bolds are notes that I added after writing it initially

Alright. I'm hungover as balls. I'm upset that I'm too hungover to enjoy Halloween again tonight. I'm mad that it fucking downpoured last night and I was stuck in Hollywood...in the rain....with 10,000 other people trying to get Uber/Lyft/Cabs/etc. I'm pissed that the cab ride we finally got cost us $106. I'm really upset that the costume I spent 2 full weeks creating and sewing (I don't even know how to sew!) was worn for 6 hours total and is now soggy.

And now I am sad and mad about this. The shallow, hungover side of me wants to respond "oh fuck off", hide it from my feed, and not deal with it. This is the third post in as many months that address similar themes in similar tones. All have left me feeling increasingly shitty and concerned.

One thing that worries me is that this is suddenly a pattern. I'm not sure if these posts are partially the result of the previous posts - are they like suicides, where one person jumps from the 18th floor of the library, and suddenly everyone decides to kill themselves by jumping from the 18th floor of the library? But, one person jumping doesn't cause everyone to jump - individuals still independently, and for their own reasons, decide to die. The pattern only lies in the method.

Which is why it's not okay for me / us not deal with this. Obviously, something is going on that is causing people to feel this way. Even if I don't agree with and don't respect the choice to antagonistically and selfishly peace out in this manner, I'm going to do my best to understand what is causing people to feel like this. You can't keep going if there is a problem and you can't fix the problem without knowing what the problem is.

Just like em's post. Just like the last post of someone leaving. I'm going to start by saying:

TLDR: YOU HAVE VALID POINTS

You have some valid points. Hubski is not perfect. Hubski does not perfectly encapsulate "a place for thoughtful discussion" all of the time. Sidenote: I'm not sure when the tagline became something that people are are using as evidence that Hubski is a failure. It's what Hubski aspires to be. It's what Hubski's goal is, has always been, and will always be. Perhaps it should be more explicit: "Hubski: where we try to be the place for thoughtful discussion but utterly fail.)

TLDR: INSOM GET ALL SELFISH AND TALKS ABOUT HERSELF

I'm also going to explain something not everyone knows. A while back, I fucking blew up at kb. It was not one of my finest moments. It was pretty terrible, and I managed to let loose on a comment of his that definitely didn't deserve it. (like...seriously...I could've picked any other comment and, while it wouldn't have justified the way I handled the situation, it would have at least made a tiny bit of sense. Nope. I like to do things the retarded way.) But at that time, I shared some of your sentiments about kb. I thought it was deliberately and purposefully pissing people off. I imagined he survived exclusively by drinking fat glasses of malice and I saw each comment as a steaming stream of malice piss... all over my face.

TLDR: KB AINT TRYING TO BE A DICK (usually)

While my attack on kb was pretty much uncalled for on every level, the reasons I felt the way I felt about him were even more wrong. I can say, without a doubt, that kb does not write comments to piss you off. He does not get off on being a dick to you. A majority of the time, he doesn't even mean to be a dick. (There are times when he does - but they are blatantly obvious and usually short and sweet. They are also usually in response to people being dicks, or being outstandingly stupid and not even trying to not be stupid.) I will agree that kb likes to debate/argue/instigate/etc and once in a debate, he likes to win. He's also good at it, which is probably related to why he likes it so much. I like winning too. If I had any motivation, I would read the books he's recommended - or persuasion and anything else. (you're going to have to google site:hubski.com kleinbl00 books and start making a list.) At least then I would be armed with more than my 24 year old emotions before meddling with the devil on his home court.

TLDR: HEY WHY DON'T YOU TRY SOMETHING THAT MIGHT HELP YOUR SANITY SINCE KB IS SO BAD

Alas, I had no motivation and I found it much more productive and stress-free to simply not read every comment of his like he intended to piss you off. If you read them with the same respect you evidently feel that you deserve, you might find his tone is not as aggressive, combative, or personal as you make them. I know that simple change on my part allowed me to be more open minded, realize that kb is actually a pretty cool guy with a lot of crazy valuable insights, and actually will go out of his way to educate, discuss, and be helpful if you communicate with him. (Actually, even if you don't communicate with him. I think I have a still have a string of notes that I meant to respond to and never did....oops. Sorry kb!)

TLDR: HEY MAYBE KB REALLY IS A DICK TO YOU AND IM TOTALLY WRONG. (really - skip this part I'm only keeping it because it took me a lot of time)

You made it fucking difficult to find the shit you referenced when you deleted your account. I managed to find the latest movie thread, where he didn't respond to you...not even once.

1. I went through every single movie post tagged #movieclub and did a search for both "user-" and "klein". I found zero interaction...ever.

2. I did google search for hubski and your name and pulled up every page that google has indexed, and then searched for "klein". I found one interaction, from 106 days ago (you joined the site 155 days ago): https://hubski.com/pub?id=166843 Reading that thread, I see a fucking boatload of snark and instigation coming from you. Like...holy shit:

It's that easy, but don't worry yourself over the fact that it makes no sense.

This is why I stopped trying to have a conversation with you. For irony, I'll go ahead and mute you. I know it won't prove my point to you, but clearly you're incapable of understanding it anyway.

If you had responded to my points in that way, I would have gotten very agitated with you. I'm surprised that KB's responses were as mellow as they were. I was expected to find a battle. I found him making a few concise points with only one line that is not as concise, but not exactly earth-shatteringly snarky or aggressive: "The choice is simple: Are you willing to abase yourself enough to bridge the gap of discussion? Then do so. Would you rather sit in your castle of high dudgeon maintaining that you have no need to apologize? Then accept that you've been muted." (I'm curious if KB had muted you at this point and was using you to literally or if he was using you as a general pronoun? Based on the entire context, I am 99% sure its the latter and this may your first interaction with him.)

3. I then went through KBs comments for the last 50 days. proof

This is the ONLY INTERACTION BETWEEN YOU AND HIM IN THE LAST 50 days (besides the relationship post) here.:

Debate about NaNoWriMo where kb covers NaNoWriMo in a pile of shit

--- [KB attacks 8bit: "Never ask your parents or your friends for an honest opinion about your writing." :( 8bit: "Why ya gotta stunt on a brotha like that, Klein." Klein admits he's truly in love with Hubskina.}(https://hubski.com/pub?id=185751) :)

---- KB attacks NaNoWriMo with stats

---- You say why you write NaNoWriMo, agree with his thoughts on NaNo, disagree on...um....I'm not sure honestly

--- but then we end up at one lined snarkies by both sides -> you dont want to debate it further (what debate?) -> kb, "understand if I didn't give a shit about you and your writing, I wouldn't give a shit about this." -> you "I have no plans to mute you. I disagree with you, and that's the end of it" -> HUGGIES!

-------note: the above love from kb directly contradicts this statement you make: "and you definitely don’t care about the person to which you’re responding."

I don't even know if that's you. I hope its not serial lurker confusing me again. :(

TLDR: CONCLUSION: I'VE FOUND 2 INTERACTIONS IN LAST 50 DAYS, AND ONCE 100 DAYS AGO, BOTH WEREN'T ANYWHERE CLOSE TO WHAT YOU MADE IT SEEM LIKE WITH YOUR POST .

Granted, if he responded to you and you never responded back, it wouldn't show up in my "user-" search on his comment page. So if that's the case and kb is literally commenting on your comments and posts incessantly and insulting you, I apologize. I truly don't think that's the case though.

and now I am upset for an entirely new reason.

Because you just made this fucking post and rage quit on us. I went and spent a good amount of time trying to figure out where the issues were, why we have people quitting on us like this, and what the fuck is going on. I wanted to know why Hubski is suddenly a place for not thoughtful discussion. What I found was that there is literally no evidence backing up your claims that KB is a dick to you, is everywhere, and is ruining your experience. Nor that hubski doesn't want to be thoughtful. I thought there were problems and omg the world might end. I feel deceived, and exhausted.

Fuck you.

Just kidding.

Interacting with people is what you make it. Hubski is what you make it. Somehow, you seem to have become obsessed with kb and perhaps it is this obsession that has caused you to think that he has invaded your space and is inescapable.* He is not. He does not dominate Hubski, as much as his follower count would lead you to believe. he average share of Kb's posts are no higher than any other active user who has been on the site for a bit. He may comment more and comment longer, but I don't see how his comments lead you to be unable to comment as well. I mean...just read the post and comment, man. Don't get all wrapped up in kb's comments.

Being obsessed with KB is a fairly typical thing - I wouldn't recommend asking _refugee_ for advice on how to not be obsessed with him, but perhaps you can start a kb-obsessed support group or something?

The fact that he doesn't seem to respond to you as much as you've lead us to believe also makes it very hard for me to understand the line about "...But I won't put up with being chased around and shouted down at every opportunity" I was genuinely concerned that kb may have turned into a rapist. But I think ref's point, "This reminds me, uncomfortably, of people who tell women to smile more....." is pretty spot on. The fact that you are the one who is publicly defacing kb shows a lot about your character.

This line doesn't make any sense to me: "

Hubski could be better, but it won't be, because it doesn't want to be. There's no reason for me to participate here. I want to, because....I enjoy the community. But I won't...

It's a real shame that good people can do a single thing that will forever change the way people perceive them and remember them. Frankly, I found you to be a cool guy and welcomed another developer on Hubski. I enjoyed the myriad of threads that we had that went for days (sometimes because I forgot to respond - other times because we just wandered about the conversation). As much as I'll try to remember those times and not this post when I think about you, the reality is is that this post carries much more weight as it is charged with emotion. Everything about this sucks...and it's raining again. Ah well... all those moments will be lost...like tears in rain and shit.

<deep sigh>

I've read like eight books(edit: I wrote this, then wrote what follows - the actual number is over 20). Israel is kind of the distillation of conflict and hegemony going back to the Crusades. As such, you kind of need to form your own opinion. I can give you my mileposts; you may or may not come to the same conclusions.

1) The Jews are kicked out of Palestine by the Babylonians in the Diaspora (A)

2) A return to Israel becomes ingrained in the basic prayers of the Jews (A)(B)

3) Landless, the Jews wander afield. Many end up in Europe, where they are treated like outcasts and forbidden from working the land, thereby shoving them into occupations like tailoring and moneylending (A)(C)

4) The Crusades expose Europeans to the current occupants and conflicts of Palestine, restructuring religious and cultural comprehension of Europeans as "our Jews" and the Moors as "their Jews" (A)

5) Persecution of Jews continues in Continental Europe with the expulsion of the Moors and persecution of the Sephards in Spain, driving more Jews to England (A)

6) England, eager to legitimize Anglicanism, embraces the Old Testament and all things Jewish (except Jews, who still can't own land) as a refutation of all things Catholic, leading to the Puritan tradition of naming white kids after biblical Jews (A).

7) The Enlightenment and Renaissance re-align Europe along the concept of boundaries and nationalism rather than city-states and tribalism, further alienating and disenfranchising the Jews (D)

8) English purges drive the Puritans to the United States, where "jewishness" as a biblical conceit remains worshipped but actual Jews remain reviled (A)

9) As colonization and empire flourish, so does materialism and territorialism thereby raising the hate levels against Jews, culminating in the Dreyfus Affair, in which a French army captain is tried for treason essentially for being Jewish (A)(B)(C)(D)

10) The Dreyfus Affair prompts another diaspora of European Jews to England, where Theodore Herzl and others come up Zionism not as an approach to trample the rights of Palestinians, but as a way to keep from going extinct in the face of 2000 years of persecution and extermination (A)(B)(D)

11) The outbreak of WWI and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire ("The sick man of Europe") leads to a global reapportionment of territory in which the Middle East is carved up willy-nilly for Western empires, particularly France and England (D)(E)

12) Sensing an in, Theodore Hertzl petitions Lord Balfour for a chunk of land to move all the Jews to so they don't get exterminated by French, Russian, German, Spanish and English pogroms. Balfour offers Uganda. Hertzl says "yay" everyone else says "Uganda?" (A)(D)(E)

13) Baron Rothschild (AKA the richest, Jewishest rich Jew in the history of rich Jews) appeals to Balfour for Palestine, rather than Uganda, and the British Empire essentially signs a letter of intent saying "We don't have a particular problem with that, but we're not going to support it, really, you're on your own, fuckers." Europe and the European Middle East collectively LOSE THEIR SHIT (A)(B)(C)(D)(E)(F)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration#mediaviewer/File:Balfour_portrait_and_declaration.JPG

14) With a little bit of money and not a lot of support, a hard-core Zionists buy up a couple hundred acres in Jaffa that will become Tel Aviv. The Arabs, who never got the "territory not tribe" memo (D) say "fuck this noise" and begin terrorism and warfare with material support from the French (E)(F)

(non-sequitor about Jewish persecution in Tsarist Russia goes here - this is how my great grandfather Mordechai went from being a jeweler in Moscow to being a greengrocer in Manhattan)

15) The world spirals into a nasty depression wherein everyone loses all their money. The Germans, loath to blame their misfortunes on their war of aggression against Belgium and France, blame it on war reparations they never actually paid and on those filthy Jews, who have always been handy, and who are hated by the Spanish, French, Italians and the entirety of the former Hapsburg Empire (your 6th grade history teacher)

16) BAD THINGS HAPPEN brought to you by The History channel

17) The United States, noticing that Europe has twice driven the world to war over old grudges and recognizing that oil is the future, proceeds to ass England out of Saudi Arabia for ever in exchange for all the oil they can drink, all the guns they can sell, and a "don't ask, don't tell" policy towards those filthy Jews across the peninsula (C)(F)(G)(H)

17) Hitler's Bunker etc V-E Day and kissing in the streets. Meanwhile, France is in ruins, Belgium is in ruins, Germany is in ruins, Poland is in ruins, Italy is in ruins, England is broke as fuck and the United States is ascendant. All of the countries listed aside from the United States enact policies and procedures that essentially say "we don't care that this was your house, we don't care that this was your job, we don't care that your family was gassed at Dachau this is ours now and you should fuck off, you filthy Jew" (C - Seriously - the entire last chapter of C is a solid, documented, footnoted argument that while the Germans were the ones that actually carried out the Holocaust most every country in Europe was thinking about it, was aligned with its principles, and was pretty damn happy to have those filthy Jews gone).

18) Tel Aviv is now one hope in a blasted hellscape of holocaust survivalism and a Europe that just doesn't give a fuck about the Jews. Everybody bolts for "Israel." The British hate this because, completely assed out of Saudi Arabia, Iran and Palestine are all they have for oil that they desperately need. (B)(C)(D)(F)

19) Now at odds over how to run the world, England sidles up to Iran, France sidles up to Egypt and the United States sidles up to Saudi Arabia. Not surprisingly, half of the intelligence apparatus of Europe ends up in Israel. (C)(H)(I)

20) Irate over the rapacious contracts enjoyed by the Anglo Iranian Oil Company (AOIC, aka BP), Mohammed Mossadegh is swept to power. England, thoroughly assed out of oil, attempts to overthrow Mossadegh and enlists US help. The US somehow manages to fuck up in such a way that the English coup attempt fails but another all-American attempt a week later succeeds, thereby installing Mohammed Zair Shah, an American puppet, in the Peacock throne. US interests now control Saudi Arabian and Iranian crude 100%, thereby converting England to a vassal state of the United States (C)(G)(H)(I)(J)

21) Gamal Abdel Nasser decides to dam the Aswan in Egypt. England and the US offer to help. Nasser decides Non-Alignment is the way to go and gets Soviet aid as well. England and the US withdraw in a huff. Nasser nationalizes the dam, thereby evaporating large swaths of European investment. England and France enlist Israeli intelligence to help them invade Egypt. The United States, not consulted on the adventure and knee-deep in a proxy war with the Soviet Union in Korea, pins all three country's ears back but especially Israel. Israel gains material support from the United States and intelligence exchanges. (C)(I)

22) (SPECULATION AHEAD) The United States, just to put Israel in its place, mentions nothing about the massed troops plainly visible via satellite reconaissance that led to the Yom Kippur War. Israel faces an existential crisis and gains land; the Arab world is humiliated, and the only remaining power in the Middle East that isn't on the US payroll is pushed back. (B)

23) Israel becomes even more of a rallying point/thorn in the side of Middle East countries. Nasser is assassinated by the Muslim Brotherhood, the great-grandfather of Al Qaeda, the PLO, Hamas and every other faction in the Middle East. Yasser Arafat, an Egyptian, re-invents himself as "Palestinian" to put a human face on the Arab-Israeli conflict. (B)(D)

24) Stansfield Turner, DCI, responds to Watergate revelations by conducting the Halloween Massacre at the CIA, whereby the agency essentially purged its abilties of HUMINT (HUMan INTelligence) in favor of ELINT (ELectronic INTelligence) and IMINT (IMaging INTelligence). As part of this process, the United States loses the ability to predict the fall of the Shah and rise of the Ayatollah, thereby turning over the 2nd-largest military and arsenal over to Islamic extremists with a real axe to grind against the US. (G)(H)(I)(K)(L)(M)(N)(O)

25) Iran, fully recognizing that the CIA is effectively its only oppositional power in the Middle East, begins a Soviet-style proxy battle against the CIA and, therefore Israel, its paid-in-full puppet and the most obvious thorn in the side of Islam via Hamas and Hezbollah. IT'S SUPER-EFFECTIVE. Their greatest success, aside from the Marine barracks bombings and utter chaos enjoyed by the Middle East at large, is kidnapping and murdering William Francis Buckley, the legit CIA station chief for, like, The Middle East. (I)(L)(M)(N)(O)

26) The CIA begins a perpetual hard-on for anything related to annihilation of the regime in Iran. This includes arming and encouraging Iraq in a bloody and pointless war that kills millions. France, never one to miss a beat, sells Iraq mustard gas. Meanwhile half the oil in the Middle East is no longer American so the United States doubles down in Saudi Arabia where, by the way, Wahabism is sweeping the ruling class. IMPORTANT TO NOTE: Saudi Arabia is run basically by the Kardashians. It’s not really a country. It’s about 80 dudes directly related to Ibn Saud that do what they want. (F)(G)(H)(I)(K)(L)(M)(N)(O)

27) So here we are: Saudi Arabia wants Israel annihilated because Jews. Iran wants to fuck with Israel because CIA. Iraq fired Scuds at Israel because CIA. The CIA relies entirely on Israel because William Buckley. And when Europe and Russia completely assed the Jews out of their homes, the United States has been providing Israel with material aid since WWII. And, by the way, a lot of them emigrated to the United States. (A-O)

TL:DR: Israel is where Europe finally got to cast all its jews. Israel is the most democratic and American-friendly state left in the Middle East, so we rely on them for intelligence and ground support in proxy warfare. Israel, in turn, takes the brunt of Islamic aggression against the West because not only are they an obvious example of Americanism, but they are literally the boots on the ground for a clash of ideas going back to the Enlightenment and a clash of colonization going back to the Crusades.

In my opinion? The Palestinians will be wiped out. It’s just a matter of time. They’re Native Arabians on the Reservation and eventually the plague blankets will catch up with them. But it isn’t the “Israelis” that started this.

It’s us.

And that’s why there are no simple answers.

(PS I could throw more books at this)

________________________________________________________________________________

(A) Bible and Sword: England and Palestine from the Bronze Age to Balfour by Barbara Tuchman

(B) The Fight for Jerusalem: Radical Islam, The West, and the Future of the Holy City by Dore Gold

(C) Postwar: A History of Europe since 1945

(D) How To Win A Cosmic War: Confronting Radical Religions by Reza Aslan

(E) Paris 1919: Six Months that Changed the World by Margaret McMillan

(F) Hatred's Kingdom: How Saudi Arabia Supports the New Global Terrorism by Dore Gold

(G) Sleeping with the Devil: How Washington Sold our Soul for Saudi Crude by Robert Baer

(H) Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq by Stephen Kinzer

(I) Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA by Tim Wiener

(J) All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror by Stephen Kinzer

(K) RESET: Iran, Turkey and America's Future by Stephen Kinzer

(L) Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA in Afghanistan from the Soviet Invasion to September 10 2001 by Steve Coll

(M) Charlie Wilson's War:blah blah blah super long subtitle by George Crile

(N) Ghost: Confessions of a Counterterrorism Agent by Fred Burton

(O) See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism by Robert Baer