I think we can all agree that Hubski needs some fixing. Please think on that. My painting needs some fixing. I slapped those clouds on there to give me no choice but to get bold. I am building a custom 1/10 rc buggy and loving it.
I've been moderating online communities since I ran my first BBS in 1986. Other than my bass guitar forums, Hubski is pretty dang good, as far as treating-other-users-as-humans goes. But Hubski is also rigorous. There are scientists and experts here that you simply don't see on other general forums. So fluffy thinking and poor argument structures are called out pretty mercilessly. If you posted the same thing on Reddit, you'd get 10k upvotes and oodles of "Right on, man!" comments. But here, there is probably an expert that knows more than you, or someone who is better read than you, or someone who is going to point out your fallacious argument structure. And they are going to correct your mistake(s). Some people take that input well. Others don't. Being a Grumpy Old Man (tm) like I am, I feel like people who grew up online (aka "kids today") are not used to having their shit called out/corrected by someone who is more skilled, knowledgeable, or eloquent with the written word. Not everyone has a facility with the written word, and when you put together deep knowledge with communication skills, loose/fallacious arguments and positions fall to pieces very quickly. Which should be humbling and educational, but can be taken as an "attack" by the person who put together a shoddily built platform to stand on. I don't think Hubski is broken or "needs fixing". An Idea What if there was an interactive element the poster could choose to add to their posts and comments that was a thermometer at the bottom of the comment/post, say 3 inches wide, that was red on the left, green on the right, a vertical black bar in the middle, and a little ball indicating the current level of "agreement" with the post. Readers could simply click the red side or the green side to indicate their approval/dislike of a post, and, over time, the "quality" of the post would be shown by its temperature (aka, the position of the little ball indicator in the red or green zone.) It's not upvote/downvote, because there is no "award" for a greener post than a redder one. It is just a way for the community to express to the poster that their content is valuable or appreciated, or not. And it is fundamentally different than clicking the hubwheel and sharing a post. You may "green-up" a post, but not share it. Or you may "redden" a post, but still want to share it by clicking the hubwheel. It's a way for the community to provide simple feedback on specific participation, and might help improve the quality of posts in general, as people are appreciated for writing "greener", more community-productive posts. It's a thought...
There are GenX and Boomers who had never seen the Internet before Facebook, and there are GenX and Boomers who saw Facebook and knew immediately it would be the end of the Internet. Every single GenX or Boomer on Hubski is the latter. I would go as far as to say that every single GenX or Boomer on any non-specialized forum is the latter.The Millenials and Zoomers are the first whole generations to ever have the opportunity to have their shit called out at a young age, and from what I've seen they take it better than the boomers and non-technical Gen Xers who have spent more of their lives unchallenged.
Milan Kundera observes in Life is Elsewhere that adolescence is the time we try on different masks as we walk across the stage. It's a great quote; I have it written down but not here. Sherry Turkle wrote a whole book on the phenomenon back in '95; she's a developmental psychologist who got deep into "computers" and how we interact with them back in 1984. Her point was that adolescents and young adults put on personas, as documented by Erik Erickson and others, but that doing so on the Internet allows people to have a much lower entry and exit cost than ever before which makes the relationships that much more tenuous. Jaron Lanier talks about the difference between anonymity and pseudonymity in You are Not a Gadget but he doesn't really get into the disconnects we all feel between pseudonymity and identity. I think these two issues are the biggest source of friction communities like Hubski face: young adults attaching and detaching from pseudonyms while also attempting to determine their identity, and old fucks who are as committed to their pseudonyms as they are to their brand of toothpaste who don't suffer people with no skin in the game. Back in the heyday of Reddit, five different "power users" were the same person. He got a job, aged out, and that was that. I'm well aware that I'm the elephant in the room here. To me, the issue is that ideas should be put forth to be defended or debated in order to refine thinking and persuade others to your cause. To others, the issue is that ideas should be put forth to reinforce your self-esteem as people agree with them. I mean, that's Facebook in a nutshell - like my post or unfollow me. And under that paradigm - the paradigm of "engagement" - it's difficult to develop a culture of disagreement. It's difficult to create a space where someone else can be wrong but not your enemy. And so very, very many ideas on the Internet these days are deadly. Your right to bear arms kills black people. Simple as that. Your libertarian worldview creates poverty. Simple as that. And many of our dearly departed didn't like having their favorite ideas challenged. Not sorry.
karmanaut? Whatever happened to him? Reddit is exploding today with the theory that user/maxwellhill is actually Ghislaine Maxwell.Back in the heyday of Reddit, five different "power users" were the same person. He got a job, aged out, and that was that.
I have so many memories from around 2006-08 of Reddit being this endlessly interesting and engaging thing. Of course it's changed, but some not-insignificant part of the difference between how I viewed it then and my impressions of it now must be about what's changed in me. Now that I think of it, I'm fairly sure the first reference to eternal September I ever heard came from you.
The discussion on transgender rights has come on hard and fast and with a ferocious urgency. Those same GenXers and Boomers who discovered the Internet after Zuckerberg wrapped it in a bow grew up laughing at Monty Python's "no poofters". Charlie Daniels died two days ago and every obituary brought up "Devil Went Down to Georgia" and none of them brought up "Uneasy Rider '88." I mean, here's me throwing Paul McHugh into the mix because I read him in the Wall Street Journal. Here's Psychology Today doing the same four years later. I think at the time I was indignant that I could now be lambasted for not knowing the term "two-spirit" (or that it's what the asterisk stood for in "LGBTQIAK*" for a hot minute) when before I was considered enlightened for knowing a little about the subtle intricacies of life as a berdache. At the time? You were doing ethnic studies. Ten years later? You might as well say "niXXer studies." And the problem is, the language needs to change and the attitudes need to change but the people trying the hardest to champion usually end up being the ones being corrected the most because they're willing to put in the work. coffeesp00ns, wherever she is, did a yeoman's job of not rubbing my nose in "you just quoted a guy attempting to erase my identity in the WSJ" and I've been forever thankful for it. There are millions of people who sat in theaters and laughed as Crocodile Dundee embarrassed a drag queen on the big screen and there are millions of people who will argue to the death that everyone who did so should have known then what horrible prejudicial people they were. And those people will never convince each other of anything.
You're welcome, glad it stuck. Some of the stuff you've said stuck with me over the years (positively). The important part about being one of these people is to be okay with being corrected. Every community I've encountered, or personally been a part of, has been very giving to people who fuck up, so long as you correct yourself and keep moving. "Sorry, my bad," goes a long way. I did a bit of deep dive to see where this discussion built from, and I have to say I'm very disappointed that TNG posted an article by a person whose notoriety mostly comes from preferring that people like me don't exist. I think it behooves us to consider who writes articles, and what their motives might be, before we post them. I would assert that this article is a much better read on the situation. It's important to remember that trans people are, as has historically been the case (see Weimar Berlin, 1920s America, 1950s America), the canary in the coal mine of conservative attempts to pull the Overton window back in their direction. As a minority, we are easy to vilify, especially those of us who are gender non-conforming. We are not a part of regular experience, and so we are easily turned into a bogeyman. That's what the "Gender Critical" movement does, and it has reared its ugly head quite publicly in the UK. The knock-on result of these current efforts (If they come for the trans people, and you do nothing because you are not a trans person) is that anyone who does not fit a conservative ideal of "man" and "woman" becomes subject to ridicule and lost opportunity. Already cis women are getting harassed by men for "going into the wrong bathroom". Fuck, my old masters teacher, a midwestern mom, has had this experience. the only "gender nonconforming" feature she has is a caesar haircut. An incredible amount of the people who signed that letter are bad news. There have been some great rereads of Rowling's books with her current views in mind, and well, they get ugly. A race of human-like creatures who love to be servants and don't know what they would do if they were freed. a race of long-nosed caricatures who have few rights but control all the money. A woman who shapeshift but has "mannish hands" (a classic transphobic trope). Atwood has actively been part of attempts to silence women who accused a UBC professor of sexual assault. These people are not good company. They have a right to say what they believe, but they don't have a right to freedom from criticism, or freedom from the consequences of saying those things, nor do they have a right to a public forum to say them. Free speech absolutism is the privileged opinion of people for which there are no actual consequences when they have an academic argument around "do Black people deserve to be beaten by police", and "Do trans people deserve rights". It is the privilege of those who believe they are unaffected. Until, well, they are affected.but the people trying the hardest to champion usually end up being the ones being corrected the most because they're willing to put in the work.
I read Harry Potter last year for the first time last year. The first book is great. The second book is okay. The third book is... meh. Everything after that is fucking terrible. My wife and kid are grinding their way through the books now and I've refused to read Order of the Phoenix when my wife gets sick of it because it's just so goddamn awful. JK Rowling is a monarchist starfucker who is all about the proles knowing their place. I wasn't nearly as focused on her bad ideas about gender; her bad ideas about society were more than enough. That scene at the end of the last movie? Where Harry and Malfoy are like waving at each other at the train station? Fuck Harry Potter.
I observed exactly this at community college, when the Running Start kids totally dunked on the retraining kids with their fuckin' lightsaber deathly hallows stickers. Legit heard a 18-year-old friend refer to our instructor (10 years my junior) as "such a fucking Millennial." Called him a slacker, griped that his face was always in his phone, and made fun of his facial hair. Kinda feel like kids these days would totally vote Eisenhower if they could.
this post begins with a special shoutout to van morrison - everybody knows what this song is supposed to be about van no matter how much you try to deny it ace ventura, silence of the lambs, family guy, south park, psycho... death spa? media is a hard time for people who were once men - off the top of my head i think the best movie about genderbending in any context is some like it hot i think about the "i'm a man!" "nobody's perfect" line a lot when i'm feeling down and it never fails to cheer me up - i think it says something really important about the trans woman experience and if i was smarter i might be able to explain why like a lot of generic sad teenagers i got really into the velvet underground and it blew my mind when i found out lou reed had a transgender girlfriend - apparently lester bangs called her "grotesque, abject… like something that might have grovellingly scampered in when Lou opened the door to get milk or papers in the morning" so such as it is i suppose i read as much as i could find about her online and i was inspired to write this for as much of a prick lou reed seemed to be he's the only person that has consistently written about trans women in his music in a loving, romantic way that i can think of and i think that's why i keep coming back to him because sometimes it feels like there's nothing in the world for us but porn stars and eddie redmayne to look up to and it's nice to have something that you don't need to blur your eyes to identify with i guess what i'm trying to say is that at this point in time i think the culture war and trans rights thing is at the tipping point where maybe we don't have to educate nana about the plight of the tran because in a couple years she'll be dead, you know? i think often the people who are most focused on convincing each other of anything re: crocodile dundee type discrimination aren't trans people in the same way that it seems to be all honkies changing the name of aunt jemima syrup or whatever. there are more important things to worry about and there always have been, like canceling eazy-e #CancelEazyE
And that is where you are wrong. Those of us who operate businesses that explicitly cater to the trans community (three workshops in four years) will freely agree that the trans community is generally aware of their social fragility and appreciates being treated as human. The problem, however, is that those of us at the periphery of the trans community regularly encounter cisgendered culture warriors that believe "inclusivity" is a euphemism for internecine jihad against all others in order to claim the title of "woke." It's never the people who claim the asterisk. It's the people who learned what the asterisk meant yesterday, and in order to atone for their previous shame they will now beat you over the head for not knowing before they did. It's the constant castigation of the community in practice for a community that is very much in theory to them. It's the woker-than-thou bingo played by privileged white people in order to feel better aligned with the angry dudgeon on their social media. It's the white Orange County trust fund kid with the MFA from USC telling you to check your privilege when you link to the Bureau of Indian Affairs without apologizing for Wikipedia's title. THAT is what we're discussing here: not that the transgender community will ever "cancel" anyone but that the enlightened Karens of the world will make enemies rather than allies to show that they're one of the Good Germans. I have an employee who is half Brazilian, half Japanese. She suffered ridiculous amounts of prejudice from a student who disregarded her and disrespected her to such a degree that when we went on vacation, the student decided she'd just go home. And there was a massive kerfuffle when we dismissed the student because the student is African American... so on the Wokeness Scale being taught at their institution, she has more purity points. A handful of straight white women in their 40s and 50s are literally teaching minority students that some minorities are more deserving of protection than others. We have more minority hires than white people and it took six weeks of careful maneuvering to not be the racist birth center. THAT is the problem. All the other birth centers that explicitly do not hire minorities? They don't have to deal with this. And THAT is the problem.See the thing is though that as fast as trans rights is moving, you aren't obligated to keep up with it or keep track until you want to participate in discussions about them.
Again, that is not the problem. We formally ceased to communicate with the student the minute we dismissed her because you could feel the lawyers rising behind your backs. The university required the student to write us a "thank you" card for some reason; it very deliberately and purposefully side-eyed the minority midwife in a coldly calculated way to denigrate her skills and professionalism in such a way that the university couldn't notice and we totally could. The minute we dismissed her, our interactions were entirely with the student liaison, who thankfully is also a person of color. The problem is that in order to keep the rest of the (entirely white, entirely privileged, entirely non-minority-hiring) community from branding us as the racist birth center, they had to make this student speak publicly - on the record - in front of all her peers - in a mandatory attendance seminar - about what she had "learned" from being dismissed from two birth centers (we were the second) to apply to her third (who are friends of ours, and whom we discussed her hiring with for 45 minutes prior to them signing on). Because there's a lot of anger going around, and people will do whatever it takes to be on the right side of that anger. And when the side you're aligned with decides that you deserve more anger for not doing it exactly as they say than the other side gives you for not doing it at all YOU WILL FUCKING CHANGE SIDES. It's so much easier to say "those idiot bitches over there who tried to hire the darkies got what was coming to them" than it is to say "we all need to try harder to better integrate multiracial professionals." And THAT is the real problem here: The Good Germans are still Germans. And they're being rewarded for being Germans. And they associate with Germans, and they think German thoughts, and they aren't Nazis? But they catch a lot less grief from integrating with Nazis than integrating with The Woke. I fucking lived this with the anti-vax crowd. Nearly all of 'em were typical, normal, semi-fearful parents who read that Kennedy article in Salon and compared their kids' vaccine schedules with their own. Then they'd ask their doctors and be told what terrible parents they were for even thinking about the vaccine schedule. Then they'd surf around online and find a welcoming community telling them not to vaccinate their kids and a whole bunch of "skeptics" shouting them down and accusing them of genocide for questioning dogma. And within weeks they knew more about thimerosal than they did about mumps and the acceptance drove them together and multiplied their numbers until my wife was making $40 a pop explaining how to keep their non-vaccinated kids from getting sick and what additional precautions they needed to take if they wanted to interact with the world at large because that fear, and that distrust, and that hate, became their identity. You want to be angry at the people you're angry at without having to think about the consequences. And you're apologizing to me that I'm forced to think about the consequences but you don't see that we all are.I'm sorry that you had to deal with the "you fired me because I'm black" level of human garbage.
Not gonna talk about cancel culture. I don't know enough to make a honest assessment of the situation, let alone share an informed opinion. But on goodness? I think you're leaning too far into the cynical and I encourage you to pull back a bit and look at things from a different angle. Never read Dostoevsky, but I think from that scenario that it can also be read that his heroes are admirable because they insist on doing the right thing despite the risk of the world tearing them apart. By your logic then, Dostoevsky's heroes fit that ideal. Dala and I were talking the other day, about people doing the right thing, and we both joked that we're in a bit of a catch 22. More people would do the right thing if it was easier and there was less risk involved, but in order for that to happen, we need more people to do the right thing. So for now, our hopes rest on the brave and the bold and the stubborn who insist on doing the right thing. Our hopes rest on the ripples of their actions and the ripples of the hopes of others. In doing so, we're able to live in a country where there's two pandemics going on (covid and the pandemic of despair), economic hardships everywhere you turn, political polarization so strong it's insane, and yet in the past two months we've made more progress towards minority rights and police and criminal reform than we've seen in the last decade.The reason I mention and recommend Dostoevsky again is that all of his books examine how completely the world will tear you apart again and again for doing the right thing, in ways it never could have done if you never went out into the world. His heroes are tragic because they will never learn to act differently because of it.
I don't believe that anyone is really a good person until it's hard for them to be a good person.
Which isn't a theme exclusive to that novel. But look, "realistically" and "truthfully," in the real world, that's not the a good metric. People can be good yet still flawed, hold all sorts of dichotomies in themselves, in their thoughts, and in their behaviors without ever warranting titles such as "hypocrite" or "bad person." I know people who want the best for their kids and go out of their way to try and give them every opportunity they can, but at the same time feel like supporting public schools so other kids can have similar opportunities shouldn't be their responsibility. I know people who are kind, generous, and charitable, and extremely concerned for the happiness and the well being of people in their lives, but at the same time argue against social safety net programs. I know people who have very strong sense of right and wrong and do their best to live by those ideals, but are quick to judge and condemn anyone who can't keep pace with them. Even those with the kindest of hearts and the best of intentions and who want nothing but good things for the world and the people in it have their flaws, short comings, and blind spots. Dostoevsky is allowed his world view. I bet it's complex and compelling, I bet it's poetic. But I don't think it reflects reality. People are good, not because they choose to be in times of convenience or in times of adversity, but because they want to be. That's the true metric. Everything else is circumstance. It's up to each of us, both as individuals as well as collectively, to do what we can to help empower others to be good, to do the right thing. Hence the Catch 22.A large, recurring theme in that novel is that, to truly live a life of goodness, you must know and acknowledge everything that the cynical man believes and decide, simultaneously, while acknowledging that, to love the world anyway.
Dostoevsky is a poet. But if that quote is exemplary of his philosophy, then I wonder if he really knows what makes someone "good." Wanting to be a good person is what makes someone a good person. It is the very beginning, the spark, the catalyst, that can drive their hopes, their thoughts, their words, their actions, their whole being towards goodness. For most people though, we cannot expect them to develop goodness through sheer force of will. It has to be developed and nurtured and brought forth, by educating people about what is important and just, by encouraging them and inspiring them through our actions and examples of goodness in the world that surrounds us, and by empowering them by not only creating an environment that promotes good behavior, but by creating opportunities for them to make choices that allow them to express their good will, their generosity, their kindness, their humility. Goodness in a person is more than just the product of personal choices, it is a reflection of the world they live in. It's incumbent upon all of us to help build that world.
I'm not getting defensive. I'm saying that what makes a good person is more than just the choices they make and I never said that people aren't allowed to be flawed or make bad choices. In fact, just the opposite. By saying that all that a person requires to be good is the desire to be good, they're given all the space in the world to be flawed and make mistakes because their choices and actions and mistakes and flaws haven't even been factored into the equation, yet. Eventually, their actions have to reflect their desires, but like I said, the desire is the catalyst. Philosophically, we're on similar pages but not. Being good and loving isn't about active or passive choices, because those are conditions of living we all go through whether we want to be good or not. The same is true of feelings of frustration and of attempting things and brushing up with failure. But that's part of the point. The frustrations and failures? We need those in our lives. They keep us humble, they make us cautious. More importantly though, they make us forgiving, so that we can first learn to forgive ourselves for the mistakes we make and learn to try to right our wrongs, and in doing so we learn how to forgive others and help them express contrition and grow as individuals. And thus, we further shape the world in a mindset that encourages people to be good, because instead of making people feel like they're condemned to their failures and flaws, we give them the opportunity to try again.
Here's the issue we're coming across. I'm not talking past you, you're talking past me. I'm not worried about what Dostoevsky thinks at this moment and I'm not worried about what Kierkegaard thinks at this moment. If I did, I'd pick up their books, read about what they have to say, and form my own opinions on their opinions. What occupies my mind, in this, are your thoughts and feelings on the matter, you, Odder, as a person. I've been trying to tease it out of you, first by bringing up the concept of what makes a person good. Then by bringing up the concept of why we fall short of our intent to be good and what why it's important we try to overcome it. Then by bringing up the concept of social contentedness and our responsibility to ourselves and each other to shape our environment to empower others to be good. Then by bringing up the issue of why we struggle, why we fail, why we suffer, and why those hardships matter. I figure sooner or later detachment could be brought up, if you really wanted to have this conversation with me. There is a lot of depth to this conversation to explore, because I've had these conversations before and I love exploring these issues, but instead you say this . . . Instead of having a conversation, you keep on leaning back into your original argument, instead of branching out, you're outright saying "I'm gonna be dismissive of your thoughts on the matter and consider them invalid until you read Dostoevsky (and now Kierkegaard)." I don't want to be "indulged" I want to have a conversation. I want to think "Wow, this person here on the internet has some really interesting points" and I want you to think "Wow, this person here on the internet has some really interesting points." But we don't get to have that, because apparently, in order to earn your respect I have to read Dostoevsky, as if that matters more than being an individual with his own books he's read, his own thoughts, his own experiences with triumphs and hardships, his own worldview. I mean, legit? I could try and talk about r/politics and where that anger comes from and what we can do about it. But why would I want to at this point? You seem to be more interested in championing the thoughts of dead men, however insightful and compelling they might be, than carrying a conversation with a live human being who is more interested in what you have to say. That's not healthy friend, not in the slightest, and it's part of why the world is what it is today. I'm not saying you're an r/politics kind of person, but I will say part of the reason people in r/politics are so angry is because they're more concerned about being able to crow about their worldviews than they are trying to actively engage and connect with the world. I could read Dostoevsky, but I don't want to. I got all the time in the world for that. I want to talk to Odder, because that's here and now.And regardless of whether or not you ultimately decide you agree with the Existentialist definitions of "Faith" and "Love," you will need to come to terms with them before you can decide if you agree with them or not. Otherwise we'll just keep talking past each other after a certain point.
I sincerely hope that I'm not coming off as condescending here when I say that you haven't even yet grasped what I'm talking about - the idea of Kierkegaard's "Knight of Faith" and Dostoevsky's "Active Love" are complex philosophical ideas that take a rather large amount of effort to comes to terms with, and I am doing them a bit of a disservice by indulging you here instead of just telling you to study the course that I linked five-ish posts ago.
No. You start with the abstract and drill down. We're going in circles because you don't want to drill. If you're telling me to go read Plato and Descartes, then no, you don't want to have a discussion. What you're saying is "I'm right. I don't value your thoughts. Go read these guys to see why I'm right. Conversations with you aren't worth it." Personal stuff edited out Honestly? If it wasn't for my wife and loving friends? I'd be one of those "deaths of despair" statistics you read about in the morning news and then tut tut to yourself about how the world is so cruel. I don't need to read Dostoevsky, because my life might as well be one of his novels. I want a conversation because these are concepts I care about. You want me to validate your worldview. So now there's no conversation, not because I'm mad at you, but because we can't agree on the conditions as to how this conversation should take place.Here's the problem with philosophical discussion, though - if you just discuss things in the abstract you'll be limited on where you can go and who you can learn from. We're already going in circles here
I'm happy to have those conversations with you even though I could just tell you to start with Plato and Descartes.
Because the arguments you are making? They're the kind of positions you take because you haven't lived them
I'm not mad. But honestly? You're being so dismissively condescending and assumptive of me that it's honestly baffling. I'm overwhelmed. Look at me, I'm not over here assuming and stating your positions for you so you have to waste your time taking them apart. Dude. Seriously? First of all, massively insulting. Second of all, I'm not the one who approaches conversations like "in order to have a conversation with me, you should read some Baha'i Writings, The Quran from cover to cover, a little bit of Tich Nach Hahn, some Saint Augustine." I can easily say "this is what I think and why" and when asked, expand on those thoughts. If you were to ask "Where did you get such an idea" I can often cite chapter and verse. I mean, the fact that you say "I can't talk with you about these things until you read these authors first" hints that you have less of a concrete grasp on your world view than I do on mine. Furthermore, I never asked you to expand on Dostoevsky, or existentialism, or anything of the sort. You just keep pushing the subject. Mercy. I mean, on I can go, but honestly? To be blunt? I'm not trying to hurt your feelings here, but make you understand the reality of the situation? You're being a condescending asshole. Like, massive, to the point of where everything you just typed is less of a conversation and more of an experiment in surrealist prose. I'm baffled. Utterly baffled. When you come here with your intro philosophy 101 student ideas of the nature of "goodness" and ask for debate without any references, you are being asked to be indulged without needing to learn.
Let's back up to two core arguments. First, mine: Next, yours and the reason we're still having a disagreement: I've given you several examples now of how my business is facing consequences for championing minorities - not from those minorities, but from other members of the majority trying to score purity points by dunking on each other to win the Wokeness Sweepstakes. You're bringing Dostoevsky into the mix. in the abstract you're arguing for the justness of publicly attacking anyone who doesn't toe the purity line properly because if they're anywhere near it, it's because of opportunism and the world exists to tear down good people anyway. In the concrete I'm arguing that the tendency for woker-than-thous to attack anyone who doesn't abide by their terms of inclusion drives the fence-sitters in the opposite direction. You mention Lawrence Krauss, I mention the literal hundreds of hours I had to sink into this (after my second vacation in twenty years was skunked) in order to not suffer permanent professional damage. Fundamentally? Discussions prior to the Internet were along the lines of "Hey I wish you wouldn't do that." Now those discussions are "Hey internet destroy this person for thinking mauve is lighter than magenta!" And I know you want to feel okay with being angry at strangers on the Internet because other strangers on the internet tell you to? But it's fucking corrosive. That's my whole point. No need to invoke Crime & Punishment, which I read 150 pages of before I decided that everyone that kept recommending Russian literature to me was an asshole.And the problem is, the language needs to change and the attitudes need to change but the people trying the hardest to champion usually end up being the ones being corrected the most because they're willing to put in the work.
It's the people who go out of their way to be loudly wrong about these issues who get their platform taken away, not those who are caught using the wrong pronouns or wrong words for things.
Just because the mob's been around forever doesn't mean we should accept mob behavior. That's my major point: "I hate you because my gang hates you" is never going to change anyone's mind in the direction you want it to go. And if you want change rather than self-satisfaction you need to encourage communication, not accept condemnation. Fuckin'A Tsarist Russia was bleak that's why my great great grandfather Mordechai emigrated.
I'm an old BBS'r as well. I agree that online sensitivity seems to have gone up. Perhaps it is in part because the digital aspect of identity is greater for people born in it? I'm not sure, but my guess isn't that we older folk have thicker skin, but are just less invested in that arena. I'm skeptical of actual differences in generations. IMO the snowflake hypothesis is a perception based on differing values, not that younger folk are any more or less tough. I'm not saying that's what you are saying. Just typing as I think... The thermometer idea is interesting. I do believe how we signal appreciation or structure threads, strongly influences the type of interactions we have. I'm open to experimenting with it. However, I do not see my agreement with a comment as a positive thing. Ideally, I would like to be able to indicate that I find the comment to be stimulating and constructive without implying whether I agree or not. I wish shares worked this way, but I think they do not.
Yep. I'd posit that those of us who had an identity prior to our online identity have two separate identities, while those who grew up with the internet do not have a dividing line between their online and IRL selves. That's why they can react so poorly to online harassment and bullying; I'd just turn off the computer/phone for a couple of days. No biggie. Not being online isn't really an option for many of the people who are younger than me. This is the intent of the Thermometer thingie... a way to encourage good/healthy conversation participation, without gamification tainting the intent. In addition, the thermometer would have to be included by the poster using markup, so the poster would be asking for feedback on their participation. A setting in the user prefs could automatically include the thermometer in all your posts, or you could just use a markup tag - like maybe a tilde-bang-tilde - to have it added to a single post/comment you make. That way the commenter is specifically asking the community for feedback on their participation with THIS post. It invites feedback from the community. Perhaps it is in part because the digital aspect of identity is greater for people born in it?
Ideally, I would like to be able to indicate that I find the comment to be stimulating and constructive without implying whether I agree or not. I wish shares worked this way, but I think they do not.
Circledots share a post to your followers. They push the post up in your followers feeds, so they are more likely to see it. It is you saying, "Hey, if you like me and my content, I think you'd like this, too. Check it out." So when you circledot something, you are promoting quality content rather than "upvoting" it. Sadly, when I pointed this out, I got roundly abused and shouted into oblivion by people who REALLY want it to be a Reddit upvote, and were very dedicated and self-righteous in their misuse of the tool. Which I get. After all, it is the only hammer we have on Hubski, so we hit everything with it, regardless of whether it is the right tool for the job. BUT.... using the circledot as an upvote makes following people totally useless; because your followers feed is then filled with "right? you tell em!" type posts which people have circledotted to show support for the poster rather than share the post as quality content. My thought was that introducing a second tool (that posters could use by choice to solicit feedback from their fellow Hubskites) would inspire people to better use of the circledot, since they'd also have a function for supporting/opposing the quality of the post itself. That would give us three excellent features - circledot, follow, and temperature - to curate and improve the conversation and content here on Hubski. Which is, after all, why mk made the claim that "Hubski is broken" in his original post above, and originally solicited our feedback. (Note: I should mention circledot's other function, which is to weed out spammers, by limiting your Hubski features until enough of your content is circledotted to give you badging capabilities. It makes the low-effort spam posts totally ineffective here, because nobody will see content posted by someone without at least one badge. In effect, if the community likes your content enough time to share it to their followers, then they circledot your posts, and you earn the right to engage more on the platform.) I'm actually kinda curious about how you use circledots...
I admit, my interpretation of the circledot and temp gauge also assume a growing Hubski community, and not one that forever remains static around its current size. As the community grows, the hubwheel may be insufficient, and I'd like to see something already in place that can be leveraged to help identify/reward good content, if The Influx ever comes. There have been several waves of Redditors over the years, and they inevitably use the hubwheel as an upvote, and miss the nuances of this groovy feature. (Then they leave.) So it seems like a social media site needs to take into account it does not operate in a vacuum, but in a world of other social experiences and tools... and needs to recognize new members may need a nudge to help learn the new site's tools. I also like the idea of me being able to use some unique Markup to make my posts more interactive with my readers, than just comment or circledot. I could imagine a variety of markup that could add an attribute to your posts to inspire different kinds of engagement. For example, a sidebar/offtopic option, that made your comment into an entirely new post... but left a link to the new post (and the first line or two) in the original comment on the original post. All comments about your sidebar post would appear in the new post, not in the original comment thread. Which would help when conversations diverge out of OP's topic, and into other areas. Anyway. Just rambling now... :-)
I'm afraid that would require too much interpretation to read/understand easily, and it would require you to circledot a post to give it a "temperature" as well. And the point of the temperature is the poster asking for feedback about the quality of their post/position, without requiring you to circledot it.
yeah there's probably a total of about 30 or 40 people who regularly use this site anyway, there really isn't a big barrier towards changing the culture of posting on the site if it's something people have a problem with - i think over half the userbase of the site has already weighed in about it saying "yeah we should change" already so it seems pretty easy i think people are just getting too maddycakes at each other on here and take that to mean the grand death of civility in america it's worth taking a breath i guess for everybody on here i feel like
I think no one has to present a proposed avenue of attack for a solution in order for them to recognize and do what they individually can to resolve an existing problem, lol I get that "actions i state i will do to fix the problem i perceive to exist" are missing, in general, from the posts being made, but c'mon. this isn't a business and i don't post the way i send emails for my job. it doesn't mean those thoughts aren't also on people's minds. the important thing is to acknowledge there is an opportunity to improve. you really can't do anything without that
That's a cop-out, though - every forum has its recognized style of discussion driven by whatever the consensus position is. Sometimes someone breaks out of the consensus and the consensus changes. This isn't limited to the Internet; anywhere people congregate and communicate there's a register and syntax of communication that people's messages and messaging group around. Parliament has always been more fast'n'loose than the House of Lords; as the Republicans started scoring more and more points for being rude on C-SPAN, the House of Representatives has gotten ruder and ruder. Usenet was necessarily without memes so people had to communicate via in-jokes and .sigs. PHPBBs used different iconography to communicate different shorthand. I spent a lot of time on a screenwriting board whose style of communication was moderated, so you learned how to make your point without upsetting the moderator (who would call you on the phone if you stepped over the line). going from there to Reddit was a culture shock; Reddit refined my online knife-fighting skillz like nowhere else so when I got here, "put down the knife" took too long to internalize. On the other hand, I'm on professional beta-testing forums where speaking ill of Dear Leader will most assuredly cut off your access to the Nectar of the Gods and professional forums where you never criticize a colleague lest some crunchy leviathan from ancient yore decides to surface and cut you down to size using manuals that haven't been in print since the Wilson administration. Reddit has become a much nicer place because it filled up with kids who rarely encounter criticism of any kind, unless it's ad-hominem shit-slinging on XBL. As a consequence it's become a place where you can't criticize someone's ideas because you'll blemish their fee-fees but you can call them all sorts of random names because everyone is used to be calling names. And that, I think, is where the conflict lies: the older generation is used to being able to question each others' ideas without anyone taking it personally while taking it very personally when personally attacked while the younger generation's ideas are never questioned lest it cause existential injury but calling someone an idiotic shitcamel with five exclamation points is just people talking. I will agree with you that I have more enthusiasm for defending my points than most. However, I take pains to do so within the register of the space. If anything, I'd say that people come here expecting the register to suit their wants, rather than recognizing that they need to adjust to suit the space. And for people who insist on their right to their way through any debate, Hubski is frustrating.
I'll offer a few and see if any stick. Shit they might be common place for you. The King of Kiwi insults is surely: "Egg" - Possibly it benefits from our blunt accents, but it really does make the target feel like an idiot. Example - "Oi did you hear James got caught shoplifting?" - "Aye? Fuckin' egg" - "I know aye. Complete egg". Others include, Tō Raho, munter, muppet, dickhead, mong.
Egg is a personal favorite for insults, it’s so disarming and unexpected. What does Tō Raho mean?
This is twice in the last 30 minutes I've been called "old" on this site! I don't think it's a cop out to just turn away. Talking with people is a great way to learn a lot, but it also saps a lot of time an energy (I'm sure no one knows that better than you). So when you're met with the Internet as it exists right now, it's sometimes just a better use of time to say, "I'm going to do something else today." I left this site for almost 2 years because it was taking more out of me than it was giving back (lots of reasons for that, some of which are, frankly, unique to me and so not generalizable). In that case you're doing yourself a disservice to stay on board. There's an old New Yorker cartoon of a dude on his computer. His wife says, "Come to bed" and he replies with, "But someone on the internet is wrong!" It sums up a lot. Most people want to be validated. They don't want to teach and be taught. I've made real life friends on this site, and I'm happy about that. That (and covid) is what finally brought me back. I missed it in a way I didn't realize I did. I'm not an old-hand at internet forums, so my perspective on that does not exist. What I do know is what I enjoy, which is talking about history, current events, science, etc., and also admiring all the cool things that people do and then share. So long as that's happening, I can say I'll probably be around. But if and when we get to a point where sharing a well reasoned (or at least some reasoned) opinion is met with attacks on your person and not on your words more often than not, that's when I'll fuck off again. Don't give a fuck whether the kids do that all day. It's not for me.
If you were king, and this were your kingdom, on a scale of "go fuck yourself" to "well, i mostly agree with you, but there's one point in particular that i'd like to raise here...", where would you land Hubski?
Don’t you ever talk to me and my bread like that again.