And it's far less likely someone will do one of these sorts of things than go to a doctor who allows you to pay to have it done. People will always do it, it's that the number will go down by significant amounts. I don't doubt that people will do stupid things, as you describe. I've seen people cut their fingers open and stick magnets in them because they thought it was cool, or people who today eat and get so fat they can't walk intentionally. Using a hanger to perform an abortion isn't that extreme, really. The problem is that it is potentially deadly, and is very dangerous. People can, and will, die trying it, and that will prevent many people from trying it when they would have gotten an abortion. I don't want to stop them. I just said there isn't such a punishment that is appropriate. Where did you read me as making such an argument? The state punishment should be revoking the license of doctors who perform abortions. No more, no less. And I don't even think that should happen, people should be free to do what they damn well want to if they aren't substantially/we can know that they harming society by doing so. I do not think government should enforce law on the basis that being "human" grants you rights to life, liberty, and so on. I think those things should exist because they are beneficial and necessary for a healthy society. Killing babies doesn't really harm much, outside of the point at which you are showing you have no empathy for them, and an "inside" baby isn't such a being. I don't know if you mistook this argument as one "for" abortion, but it isn't one.In my lifetime, abortions were commonly performed with a clothes hanger on the kitchen table, or in the garage
This is not something you can stop.
Now go ahead and tell me what type of state-imposed punishment is appropriate for such a person.
I have never encountered someone with such a lack of rigor in their thought processes. Reading your response is just ... bizarre. How about the very first sentence you wrote on the topic? Seriously, you need to do some research before you form an opinion on abortions. Or do as I have, and be with a woman as she makes the decision, go with her to the clinic, and hold her hand as she goes through the process. There is no part of that process that is easy. There is no time where the potential infant is not in the room, a part of the decision. Having an abortion is not like ordering a McChicken at the drive through. And punishing anyone for having or giving an agreed-upon medical procedure, is unwarranted in every case, regardless of your morals. It is a medical decision, and you do not get to be in the room while the patient and doctor make the decision of the appropriate course of action. For any procedure. Ever. I just said there isn't such a punishment that is appropriate. Where did you read me as making such an argument?
You punish the doctors ...
I think I should clarify myself a bit more here, because I thought about where things may be going wrong. Firstly, when I talk about my judgement of how society makes it's decisions I do not refer to the decisions individuals make. For example, I have stated that the decision to abort a baby is an immoral and calculated one. I do not think this is true on the individual's level. Instead, it is the society, the larger social result of all people talking to one another, that is cold and calculating. If you support abortion because you saw the behaviors on an individual level, then I don't consider you to be making a cold, calculated, or bad decision to support abortion. What I think is that society trending towards the support and legalization of abortion is only doing so because of factors in recent changes, and it is the larger picture, the behaviors of people on a large scale, that allows abortion because of all the benefits it has now compared to how it used to. ___ Secondly, I was arguing for the idea that my moral viewpoint when I so strongly was pushing the idea of babies being people and abortion being the killing of them. This wasn't me stating, at all, that I believe abortion was a bad thing. Instead, that was me trying to express my viewpoint and reasons that I have changed my views on morality and the nature of how we should think about the world. It was stupid to include that in this whole post, and it really wasn't appropriate, sorry about that. ___ And, finally, when I talk about abortion I am referring to it from a very clinical modeled distant perspective. Those variables you talk about how "abortion is not like getting a sandwich" are things I am well aware of, but I wasn't considering those "up close" and personal situations when I was/am talking about decisions we make as a society. I have no need or desire to consider those situations, because I feel that I can't say anything about them. I am not speaking from the scope of any individual's life, but the scope of broad human behavior.
His point is in many situations there won't be a doctor to revoke a license of. Desperate woman will get shit done on their own. Another point is that no, the risk of dying from such procedures will absolutely not deter said woman. Abortions have always happened and always will, nothing in history suggests that the number will go down because it's dangerous. Deciding to terminate a pregnancy really isn't the same as putting magnets in your fingers. Like not even remotely. That argument is almost as bad as people who treat carrying a baby to term like it's as simple as carrying a backpack around.
And there would be no punishment in those situations. I don't see how that's a point. Making abortion illegal isn't about finding literally every case and preventing it at all costs, it's about generally discouraging and making the statement that "you should not do this", and making it as feasibly difficult for abortion to happen as you can while still being within reason. Do we even have a comprehensive history of the rates of people getting abortions in the past if it were ever legal/illegal? If not, than what's the backing for this claim? I'm not saying they are similar, I'm using it as an example of "people will do stupid and potentially deadly and life threatening things for petty reasons, so they'll almost certainly give themselves abortions for much more severe reasons". Are you even reading my damn post?His point is in many situations there won't be a doctor to revoke a license of.
nothing in history suggests that the number will go down because it's dangerous.
Deciding to terminate a pregnancy really isn't the same as putting magnets in your fingers. Like not even remotely.
So if something were made illegal their just wouldn't be punishment ? There's always a punishment for doing something illegal... Otherwise it's legal. That punishment may not always be enforced but it's there. The question isn't if performing abortions were illegal, it's if abortions were illegal. So here's the thing about this kind of topic, I know you like data and I know you have difficulty comphrending things without data so I get it. Topics like this though you have to listen to people and their stories if you ever want to understand fully. Goobster already told you he was around at a time when this happened, countless other people will tell you the same. Reports like this one can help illustrate the problem but I'm sure you'll find holes to poke in that report as well. The other thing is, you're trying to say you understand why people would do dangerous things like unsafe abortions because people put magnets under their skin. The reason that doesn't make sense is because the level of how dangerous the prodecure is does not matter. I understand why young girls and woman would take those kind of measures because although I have never been in their position I am able to empathize with it. I understand how they may feel helpless, overwhelmed, and like this is their only option. Maybe they understand that it's dangerous but they do it since they don't see any other option. There is not even a slight relation to the thought process of somebody doing something dangerous for kicks.
Not for individuals who can't be justifiably punished. As you can note from the tone of the people answering the questions, it's not about punishing things as if they are murder, it is about assuming it is akin to murder and declaring it wrong and necessary to discourage as much as is feasible. Putting incredibly desperate people in jail isn't feasible, and honestly I think that if we, as a society, shared the same empathy for these pregnant women as we do everyone else, a lot less people would be in jail for things in general. I have no trouble comprehending, I have trouble believing. People and their stories are not trustworthy, are subject to incredible amounts of bias, and should not be taken into account unless done through a formal system that attempts to minimize or eliminate those biases. And as for your report: Will the numbers be "low", maybe not. Will the numbers mean that nobody dies or gets hurt? No. But it will mean that the number of abortions will be lower with restrictions than without, and that society as a whole will have declared the action of getting an abortion something that is illegal and shouldn't be done. That's what it's about, not declaring no abortions at all. I didn't say there would be no black market, I didn't say nobody would have abortions, I am saying that fewer people will. Right now when you hear black market you think "war on drugs" level of black market where teenagers all over the place are smoking weed. I really doubt abortions would be anywhere near that common, especially combined with modern sexual education. No, I'm saying that as people are willing to do stupid and risky things for little reasons, they will be willing to do stupid and risky things for big reasons, of which you included in your paragraph. I'm not saying the motivations are the same, that people get abortion for a thrill? Why would I ever say that? You need to read and understand my broad point, not the little details.So if something were made illegal their just wouldn't be punishment ?
I know you like data and I know you have difficulty comphrending things without data so I get it.
you're trying to say you understand why people would do dangerous things like unsafe abortions because people put magnets under their skin
Everything illegal has a punishment. Even if it's not enforced there has to be a punishment. That just literally how it works. What's the point in making something illegal if it's not punishable ? Peoples stories and experiences have value even if you don't choose to see it. You can pretend it's all about remaining logical but that's a complete lie, lets use the example of the last time we spoke. I spoke about my experience and you made one up in your head which you believed more. (That's an important part, because you didn't just say, ya know I'm not sure about that, you made up a story and you did believe it more likely) So let's say there's a third person involved here, who should they believe ? Person A (me): was actually present for the scenario, can provide more details on request. Person B (you): read a small description of events, did not ask clarifying questions, actually forget parts of the story upon reading, just kind of made a story up. You choose to believe the story of person B which isn't logical at all. Now you can say you didn't pick one over the other but you did. You made the choice that I was wrong and you made a story you thought more likely. You're doing the same thing here. You believe fewer people will get abortions... Because reasons ? You actually have no reason to believe that. It's not that you choose to believe data over personal story, you just believe whatever you cook up in your own head over people with actual life experience. Goobster's experience just like the experience of others can offer valuable insight and he's not the one missing out here if you don't want to see that.
Again, and I am going to stress this a billion times over. I believe solidly in the idea that personal experience/accounts of situations is not valid, is not trustworthy, and never will be either of them. If you experience something, and I disregarded it, it is probably for a reason. I'm getting a lot of the same vibes from you as people I've spoken to in the past, and it's always been on this same topic. I'm going to assume the experiences you had were highly subjective and quite possibly explained by things like placebo, or other situations. If we are talking about physical situations, I am going to assume there is some sort of data that contradicted your accounts, and I pointed to that. Now, I have no idea what conversation you were talking about, I don't pay attention to the usernames of the posts I am responding to. If you could give more context I would be grateful because right now I really have no idea what you are talking about when you refer to "our past conversations". Well here you fucking go, have some data. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-a-grimes/the-bad-old-days-abortion_b_6324610.html http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/graphusabrate.html This was the number of legal abortions in 1981 total. Population increased in the time by about 1.5, so the number estimated up in the other quote of 200,000 to 1.2 million makes it kind of hard to draw a conclusion on the number of abortions going up or down. A study I found is actually very good, here's some of what it says: This is a bit off the topic, but I find this statistic interesting: Back on track: This is a bit disturbing considering the circumstances were most often rape/incest/similar situations: https://www.guttmacher.org/about/journals/psrh/2003/01/did-abortion-legalization-reduce-number-unwanted-children-evidence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttmacher_Institute I do not believe this would be a very biased study. I found quite a few that talked about abortion going up, but many of them did things like talk about "deaths" rather than "abortions" so I wasn't willing to trust them.You believe fewer people will get abortions... Because reasons ?
Abortion has been widely used in America since its earliest days. In the 1950s, estimates of numbers of illegal, unsafe abortions ranged widely, from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year.
1981 1,577,340
'Furthermore, abortion legalization may have led to an improvement in the average living conditions of children, probably by reducing the numbers of youngsters who would have lived in single-parent families, lived in poverty, received welfare and died as infants.
The number of children adopted in a given year is therefore a rough proxy for the number of newly available "unwanted" children. Legal access to abortion would be expected to reduce the number of unwanted children and thus the supply of children available for adoption and the number of adoptions. Previous research suggests that abortion restrictions less onerous than outright prohibition reduce the number of infants relinquished for adoption in the United States.
Our results indicate that adoptions, particularly of children born to white women and by petitioners unrelated to the child, decreased in the 1960s and early 1970s when states repealed their laws restricting access to abortion. Roe v. Wade also may have lowered rates of adoption of children born to white women. Legal reforms allowing small increases in access to abortion, such as allowing the procedure for women who became pregnant as a result of rape or incest, did not affect adoption rates of children born to white women.
Before the availability of legal abortion became widespread, relinquishing children for adoption was one of few options open to women with unwanted or mistimed births. The number of adoptions rose from 91,000 in 1957 to 175,000 in 1970, then fell to 130,000 by 1975; the decline of the early 1970s coincided with the legalization of abortion.10 During this period, the population of women of childbearing age (15-49) grew steadily, birthrates among unmarried women rose and total birthrates fell
Adoptions by petitioners unrelated to the child accounted for the bulk of the decline: These adoptions fell 63% between 1970 and 1975, whereas adoptions by relatives per 1,000 white women declined by 19%.
We also controlled for several variables that reflect women's opportunity costs of children and that measure economic conditions: the employment-to-population ratio in the state (i.e., the number of people employed divided by the number aged 16 and older), unemployment rate, real per capita personal income, real manufacturing wage and real average Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) benefit per recipient family (included as a measure of welfare generosity). The wage, income and welfare variables were deflated using the consumer price index for urban consumers and were measured in natural logs in the regressions.
Relative to other states, states that repealed their abortion restrictions before Roe v. Wade saw significant declines in adoption rates for children born to white women; these declines were 34-37%, depending on whether adoptions are measured per 1,000 births or 1,000 population. The effect of repeal was not significant for adoptions of children born to nonwhite women. Reforms that legalized abortion in certain circumstances lowered adoption rates of children born to nonwhite women by 15-18% but did not have a significant effect among whites. Adoption rates did not change significantly after Roe v. Wade for states that had not repealed restrictive laws, but the estimates for whites suggest a negative effect similar in magnitude to the effects of repeal prior to Roe.
Reforms that legalized abortion in certain circumstances lowered adoption rates of children born to nonwhite women by 15-18% but did not have a significant effect among whites.
The Institute defines SRHR to encompass the rights of all individuals to make decisions concerning their sexual activity and reproduction, free from discrimination, coercion and violence.
Dude, so you don't trust experience yet you use your experiences of "people like me" which are likely riddled with bias to not believe me and instead believe in a story you cooked up yourself ? You said making abortion illegal would lower the amount and the provided a stat which you followed with: This wouldn't really matter but you yourself said you base your opinion on facts and data yet you summarize that you can't draw the conclusion you made ? This is pointless. it kind of hard to draw a conclusion on the number of abortions going up or down.
I didn't intend to use that as support to say you were wrong. I just meant to say that the patterns of what you are saying match other conversations so I am assuming things about the conversation you refer to. Using the data I provided, of which I immediately followed by a reasonable amount of other information that proceeded to make more definite conclusions using statistics that are more reliable than abortion reporting, which is a very unreliable measure. ___ Listen, if you have some personal vendetta. If you have some anger at something I said, if I offended you, fucking say so and quit with the passive aggressive crap.yet you use your experiences of "people like me" which are likely riddled with bias to not believe me and instead believe in a story you cooked up yourself ?
You said making abortion illegal would lower the amount and the provided a stat which you followed with:
No personal vendetta, you just write things and then contradict them almost right away. Adoption rates going down don't mean anything. In places where abortion isn't restricted you will also see better sex Ed, better access to birth control, and many factors that contribute to a lower teen pregnancy rate in general which would all contribute to a lower rate of adoption. What's irritating is you constantly tell people their experiences are wrong but you're not smart enough to make that call. What makes it even more irritating is that you actually think you base your assumptions on logic as opposed to your own experiences and biases. The thing is though this is pointless because you will never realize that. I could link you to the thread were you chose to believe somebody who couldn't even remember the basic details over an eye witness but what's the point ? You'll never get it.
Read the paper, they go over controls they use pretty well. It goes over all sorts of different explanations and factors and explain the reason behind their conclusions. The paper is talking about a specific time-frame, not location. Unless there was a surge in sexual education in the areas the paper talks about where change happened, this isn't a likely explanation for a change in abortion rates. http://www.newsweek.com/brief-history-sex-ed-america-81001 And it seems the opposite was true. I'm not making that call, years of knowledge about the nature of human experience in science and study have made that call. This is, without a doubt, true. My own biases probably do reflect in what I say. However, I always seek to avoid using my experiences directly when I can use knowledge or research. If someone wants proof of something, I'm not going to state "I saw this therefore it is true" I am going to find research that backs it (barring direct things like "I saw that big airplane explode" which are general and severe enough that you can trust personal experiences). If someone's personal experiences are on a broad topic that occurs on a far larger scope than any individual than I'm not going to ever trust any one person's viewpoint on that system. They are useful to use to go and find information, but beyond that do not prove anything.Adoption rates going down don't mean anything. In places where abortion isn't restricted you will also see better sex Ed, better access to birth control, and many factors that contribute to a lower teen pregnancy rate
In places where abortion isn't restricted you will also see better sex Ed, better access to birth control, and many factors that contribute to a lower teen pregnancy rate in general which would all contribute to a lower rate of adoption.
Oddly enough, some of the greatest resistance to sex ed arose during the sexual revolution of the late '60s and early '70s. Sex ed became a political issue during this time, as religious conservatives built a movement based, in part, on their opposition to sex instruction in the public schools. Groups like the Christian Crusade and the John Birch Society attacked SIECUS and sex education overall for promoting promiscuity and moral depravity. In the widely distributed 1968 pamphlet entitled "Is the School House the Proper Place to Teach Raw Sex?" Gordon Drake and James Hargis framed sex ed as communist indoctrination: "[If] the new morality is affirmed, our children will become easy targets for Marxism and other amoral, nihilistic philosophies—as well as V.D.!" Rumors spread that sex instructors were encouraging students to be homosexuals or even stripping and having sex in front of their classes. "Religious conservatives began using sex ed to their political advantage," says Janice M. Irvine, author of Talk About Sex: The Battles Over Sex Education in the United States. "They had this really scary rhetoric." In school districts across the country, groups of parents started protesting sex-ed programs.
What's irritating is you constantly tell people their experiences are wrong but you're not smart enough to make that call
you base your assumptions on logic as opposed to your own experiences and biases.