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comment by War
War  ·  3408 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: What is the most critical social/environmental/political/etc. issue to address right now?

Campaign Finance.

The amount of leverage corporations have on politics is the reason we don't get meaningful change in things like education, climate change, and literally every major issue plaguing US citizens.





aidrocsid  ·  3408 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm convinced that campaign finance can be rendered completely irrelevant by giving congress secret ballots.

War  ·  3408 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Secret ballots are a really bad idea. If congress is voting on some really shitty legislation and a certain number of senators or congressmen/women vote for it we would have no clue who those people are. You are systematically wiping away one of the only things that allow us to guage how good or bad a legislator is.

aidrocsid  ·  3408 days ago  ·  link  ·  

That might be true if voters had the greatest influence on how congressmen vote. They don't. Lobbyists, party leaders, and other vote buying and intimidating groups do. If you don't know how people vote you can't buy a vote or respond harshly to a vote that wasn't the way you wanted it. Individual congressmen lose any incentive to appeal to lobbyists because there's no money in lobbying if you can't be sure you're buying votes.

Vote buying, in the form of lobbying, and intimidation by both party leaders and organizations are the two largest confounding factors in our democracy. Money buys votes, not constituent support.

Take a look at the graphs on page 10 of this study. You'll note that the policy preference of average citizens has almost no significance to the political outcomes, while the preferences of the economic elite and special interest groups are significantly impactful.

If voting for representatives we like were a remotely reliable method of ensuring policy that we like we ought to see a much more significant impact. Maybe not as significant as special interests and the economic elite, but it should at least move the line. Instead the line is flat, meaning that things the average citizen hates are as likely to pass as things the average citizen loves.

Meanwhile special interests and the wealthy dominate the political landscape. They do this because they're able to pay politicians who support them and run attack ads on those who don't. This wasn't always the case.

Before the 70s lobbyists were a joke. They were broke and ineffectual. Then the Legislative Reorganization Act of 1970 was passed.

On page 6 you'll see the following

    PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT OF COMMITTEE VOTES SEC. 104. (b) Clause 27(b) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House of Representatives is amended by adding at the end thereof the following: "The result of each rollcall vote in any meeting of any committee shall be made available by that committee for inspection by the public at reasonable times in the offices of that committee. Information so avail- able for public inspection shall include a description of the amendment, motion, order, or other proposition and the name of each Member voting for and each Member voting against such amendment, motion, order, or proposition, and whether by proxy or in person, and the names of those Members present but not voting. With respect to each record vote by any committee on each motion to report any bill or resolution of a public character, the total number of votes cast for, and the total number of votes cast againstj the reporting of such bill or resolution shall be included in the committee report."

The result of this is lobbying as it is today. This allowed for it, because now you knew what you were buying. It also allowed for intimidation, because you know who to target. Strip it away and you take away the very thing that makes our democracy less representative than it once was.

James D'Angelo explains this at length if you've got the time. He's also got a couple shorter videos addressing the topic.

War  ·  3408 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How on earth do elections work? I mean I really can't make any promise to the people because I could just as easily break the promise. Would people really be involved in something they really have no insight into? Who actually has your best interest in mind? Who is accepting money? Who isn't? We are trusting a group of people that currently only care about re-election. The secret ballot could probably help the congress as much as it could hurt it. If you control for campaign finance then you take away corporations ability to provide job security. I mean how on earth would we know who to vote for? Like If I say I will do one thing and my candidate says the same how on earth do I tell the difference when voting?

aidrocsid  ·  3406 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The same way they did. People run on a platform and hopefully vote based on how their constituents want them to. Sure, it's not perfect, but literally the only motivations they have to vote one way or another are the will of their constituents and their own honest opinion. There's no selling your votes or pandering to political leaders or special interest groups that you're afraid of.

Again, we know that right now the average citizen's opinion isn't reflected in policy at all and that the people who participate in vote buying and intimidation do get results. Big money, political leaders, and special interests have much more power and representation than regular citizens. Our own representation is so poor right now that decreasing those other powers can only increase the quality of our representation.

War  ·  3406 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The only reason our legislators pander to the will of the corporations is because the corporations provide them with the funds that allow them to win elections. The corporations are able to check the effectivity of them buying votes yes, but that still doesn't make their votes any less valuable. They don't even have the desire to vote on legislation that concerns their constituents because their constituents would never even find out if they voted one way or another. To be honest in some cases it would probably be easier to sell their vote because there is no fear that their vote will be used as a weapon against them in future elections.

What I was referring to though is the common man. How do elections work? What do we have to compare each candidate to? If one says one thing how are we to believe they will actually do that? Are we suppose to have faith in people who prior to the secret ballot did most of their voting based on which corporation could provide them with the most job security next election? Most politicians as it is now only care about keep their job, and I just don't think that enacting a secret ballot would make them follow the straight and narrow all of sudden.

When you cut their job security (you don't allow corporations to funnel billions of dollars into elections with most of it being untraceable), then the only motivation a politican has is to do his job because come election time he won't have the millions of dollars to run a fancy campaign and make false promises, he will have a strict voting record for all to see.

aidrocsid  ·  3406 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How do you tell if they're representing you well? You see if the bills they said they'd introduce got introduced. You see what they brought back for funding. You judge them on the job they're doing, like we do now.

    When you cut their job security (you don't allow corporations to funnel billions of dollars into elections with most of it being untraceable), then the only motivation a politican has is to do his job because come election time he won't have the millions of dollars to run a fancy campaign and make false promises, he will have a strict voting record for all to see.

How do you get A and B to happen at the same time? Secret ballots cut the balls off of lobbyists, what do you suggest we do to replicate that effect? You can't both get rid of vote buying and keep open ballots. One comes with the other. The second we introduced transparency in congress we started blowing up lobbying.

I mean, what you just said in the above quote is literally my argument aside from that last line. I'm not sure how you magically get rid of vote buying when everybody can see how you vote. Even if you managed to reduce campaign contributions through legislation, you could secretly be selling votes under the table.

War  ·  3406 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    How do you tell if they're representing you well? You see if the bills they said they'd introduce got introduced.

Not every Senator and Congressmen introduce bills during their term. Some even go as far to support a bill publically only to not vote for it when it comes to the floor. Now imagine that with a secret ballot. Now they could say they voted for a legislation even if they haven't because it makes them look good and it is literally against the law to find out whether what they say is true or not.

    You see what they brought back for funding.

Most corporations can fund 501c (4) charities and pour money into a campaign without anyone knowing they've done it. So right now you have no clue where a majority of their funding is. During the 2012 elections there was over 500 million dollars unaccounted for. PAC's and Super PAC's are still the more outright, but if you make a secret ballot the corporations could simply funnel funding through other channels and now you wouldn't know who is voting for what and who is paying them.

    You judge them on the job they're doing, like we do now.

What if they are investing in the future of the state or the country as a whole you would have no clue. Politicians currently want to keep their job and under a secret ballot they have every reason to lie to keep their job.

    You can't both get rid of vote buying and keep open ballots.

Yes you can by not allowing hundreds of millions of dollars flowing into campaign funds. Lobbying is fueled by their ability to provide campaign funds. The thing you seem to forget is the politicians still need money for their campaigns which will only become harder in a secret ballot which means they have more incentive to get money from people that can afford it. Until you change the structure of how campaigns work, secret ballots don't fix anything. You can't assume that people who were corrupted before are just simply going to be less corrupt because they are invisible now, if anything the new anonymity gives them more incentive to lie more than they already do.

    you could secretly be selling votes under the table.

Ok so a scenario under new campaign finance law. Both campaigns have about the same funds so their platform becomes more visible and stuff. Out of no where candidate B puts an extra million dollars in his campaign fund. Now we can immediately become suspicious of that, on top of the fact it is illegal. The campaign is the most important thing for politicians they fundraise for it incessantly, literally all year round. When you cut funding, and force their platforms forward we get a better election and then lobbyist have nothing to bring to the table when they introduce a bill to a legislator.